What Bugs Me About Prestige Classes

[Storm Raven]

Isn't the Hulking Hurler the poster-boy of overpowered PrCs?

The question wasn't overpowered PrCs, The question posed was what examples of class and PrC combinations allow a character to invade and dominate another character's "schtick". In other words the question posed was to give examples of a PrC that would allow a rogue (for example) to invade and dominate another character type's specialty. The general experience of the questioner (and myself) being that a generalist character is virtually always a second banana to a specialist in the specialist's field of excellence.

So, for example, if there was a PrC that allowed a character to be a relly good wizard and throw things like the hulking hurler, that would fit the bill. Thus far, all we have as proof that there are lots of PrC combinations that allow for a generalist to dominate a specialist in the specialist's field is a generalized and unsupported assertion.

 

[Storm Raven]

If you're going to make a prestige class, for gods sakes do it properly, don't just bodge together two bits of core class mechanics and pretend you've done something cool.

Not everything can be cool. Some things are merely utilitarian.

 

[Saeviomagy]

I'm got to chime in about Mystic Theurge and Eldritch Knight being boring. I don't give a flying fig about their power levels - overpowered, underpowered, balanced just right; it doesn't matter....

... I love Spellsword, for example. It's characterful and interesting.

But useless if all you want is to combine spellcasting and fighting. That half-caster levels kills the concept...

Mystic Theurge, Eldritch Knight, Cerebremancer et al? Boring, insipid and tiresome, highlighting the worst aspects of prestige classes. If you're going to make a prestige class, for gods sakes do it properly, don't just bodge together two bits of core class mechanics and pretend you've done something cool.

Synch.

They never pretended that they'd done something cool. Those PrCs are there to fix a rules problem.

Personally, I want PrC's that will actually get used. I doubt there are many characters for whom more than a level of spellsword is worthwhile. Highly specialised PrC's are typically useless, unless that specialisation is something broadly applicable.

 

[Saeviomagy]

Isn't the Hulking Hurler the poster-boy of overpowered PrCs?

If you disgard the rules in complete warrior for improvised weapon damage by weight, and instead simply scale a club to the appropriate size, then it's no problem whatsoever... So the answer is no.

The dweomerkeeper now, there's a problem.

 

[Spatula]

The question wasn't overpowered PrCs, The question posed was what examples of class and PrC combinations allow a character to invade and dominate another character's "schtick".

Nope, (Psi) & Firelance were clearly talking about PrCs that made a character better at their own schtick.

 

[ThirdWizard]

Hm... well the game is balanced around 4 PCs all around the same power level. If one PC gets too good at something, then this balance is thrown off, even if he or she isn't stepping on anyone else's toes. This only means the DM has to be proactive with what is allowed and what is disallowed. Usually these overpowered PrC combos are from different sourcebooks which the developers weren't considering interacting when they wrote them, thus the DM needs to step in and say no to PCs who want to use them.

What frustrates me often with PrCs are the prerequisites. Not that they are so bad, but the requirements often ask from a player to think on a metagame point of view, to specialize and sacrifice character development for the sake of the "right feats at the right time to get the PrC at this precise level". There are just too much mechanical requirements to PrCs, and not enough RP requirements (know members of the group, have a personality like this or like that) in my opinion.

That has been a concern of mine from the beginning when a PC first thought about taking a PrC. You cannot grow into PrC. The game makes it very difficult to actually introduce PrCs into a campaign through play. To attain a PrC a PC pretty much has to know he's going for it at character creation. This makes it much more difficult to make them tied to organizations.

The PCs don't know that they're going to meet the Templars of Urd (or whatever) in their travels, so how, when one decides to join that order and gain the PrC, will that occur? "Oh no, you don't have the Tower Shield proficiency which is a requirement for this Prestige Class... oh and 7 ranks of Knowlege (Nobility and Leadership), that will take you 3 levels to get if you put every point in it... better start now."

No, they can't do that. So the Players don't look for interesting roleplaying PrCs, they look for ones that will help their "crunchyness." Ideas are what's important here. Deepwood Sniper is great! They know they want to be good with a bow, so the player looks at the requirements and when creating his character makes sure that he's going to be able to get it.

Bandits of the Gnarly Wood might be an even better fit with great roleplay potential to it and a great story for his joining up, but when a player makes their character they don't have any idea they'll be running into the Bandits of the Gnarly Wood and that they have a PrC that would fit him. The DM at this point probably doesn't even know, because through play is usually where you find out where the story is going (unless you run a more linear gameplay and have players who are into that).

Thus, as specific organizations for players to join, the very nature of the Prestige Class is a difficult mold for that.

 

[Geron Raveneye]

Yeah, well...I can follow that complaint...one solution is to use your power of GMing and check if the differences between the character as it is growing into the concept the player wants it to be, and the prereqs of the prestige class that would fit the character concept pretty nicely, are too unsurmountable, or if they can be resolved by a little handwaving here, a swapping of two or three skill points there, or simply allowing somebody with only one different feat that also ties into the same concept pretty well to enter this prestige class...making sure, of course, to note down the additional changes to the prereqs, so you got them saved for another time.

After all, many people complain that they feel 3E has taken their GM thunder away...well, it won't come back if you don't start exercising it.

 

[ThirdWizard]

Handwaving is really a good solution. In fact, with a good DM you could remove all prerequisites for PrCs and at the onset of any game say none are available except those that the PCs discover in their journey. That would displease those who love the generic/multiclass PrCs probably, but thinking about it, I would prefer that system because it really is giving more options for the campaign. A good DM will learn from the players what direction they're going, then put groups in their paths that they might or might not decide to join. It also has more roleplaying potential. Proactive searching on the players' parts would lead them to more specifics of where they want to go.

Right now my main approach to PrCs is on character creation the player will tell me he wants to be, say, a Bear Warrior. Then I'll fit it into the plot of the campaign. That seems to be a more meta-gamey feel, and I might actually consider changing it to what I have above. If a PC really really still wanted to be a Bear Warrior, though, I would feel inclined to have at his disposal ways to aquire knowlege of how to become one.

 

[mhacdebhandia]

Why not just say that the Bandits of the Gnarly Wood are one of several groups which use the Order of the Bow Initiate prestige class?

 

[Aust Diamondew]

I concur.