What Bugs Me About Prestige Classes

[Odhanan]

Nope, D&D had it first with 1e bard.

Well, yes, you are right for the "egg or chicken trivia" aspect of the question, but let's face it : PrCs owe a lot to WRPG and its system of careers with a kind of "RoleMaster twist" to it.

Cthulhudrew: I basically agree with your criticism, but I think that the PrCs are best used when describing factions, organizations and other background elements of the campaign world. When they are used in conjunction with it, and not apart from it, only as rule mechanics, or 2nd edition kits, if you see what I mean.

What frustrates me often with PrCs are the prerequisites. Not that they are so bad, but the requirements often ask from a player to think on a metagame point of view, to specialize and sacrifice character development for the sake of the "right feats at the right time to get the PrC at this precise level". There are just too much mechanical requirements to PrCs, and not enough RP requirements (know members of the group, have a personality like this or like that) in my opinion.

Nothing that can't be modified at home, obviously, but still.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

Maybe in your campaign, but in mine, Turn Undead is highly relevant. And really ding-dongin' useful.

Making turn undead useful is really hard. First, few people can (or perhaps it's many people won't) memorize it's mechanics. IMO HD-based mechanics always cause problems.

It prompts all kinds of weird metagaming. IMO I think it's perfectly okay to create a construct that looks like an undead thing, and watch as the PC clerics waste turn undead on it. It's not okay to use some high HD, low CR creature and do the same thing, though.

Undead have only BAB + 1/2, so most of them have lots of HD per CR. Turn Undead doesn't work on creatures with HD that are 5 more more past the cleric's level, and this will crop up very quickly as the party gains levels. Eventually it only works on a few templates. Unless you hardly ever use big zombies or other interesting non-classed undead, it becomes useless.

(Every undead you run into is a lich or vampire? That's quite odd.)

 

[MerricB]

Maybe in your campaign, but in mine, Turn Undead is highly relevant. And really ding-dongin' useful.

The difference between Turn Undead and Greater Turn Undead (which the radiant servant has more uses of?): Very little. 10 rounds of taking undead out of a combat (normal turn undead) is very, very close to just destroying them.

Cheers!

 

[FireLance]

This often becomes "shafting so-and-so player". I call it hidden nerfing if it's being used to punish a player like that. I'd rather take out the PrC than do something unfair like that to the players.

Rebalancing the challenges does not mean that every encounter has to be with opponents designed to negate his strengths or take advantage of his weakness, nor is it meant to "nerf" or "punish" a player. Rather, it is to ensure that the other characters get the chance to shine, too. If a player considers it "unfair", I would start to suspect he is too much of an attention hog for me to want to game with him.

 

[Saeviomagy]

The difference between Turn Undead and Greater Turn Undead (which the radiant servant has more uses of?): Very little. 10 rounds of taking undead out of a combat (normal turn undead) is very, very close to just destroying them.

Cheers!

I'd disagree. I'd say that you'd be correct when talking about a rebuke undead, but turn undead causes big problems of it's own - mainly that once the undead have run off, you still have to encounter them again.

For some undead (ie - grunt types like skeletons and zombies) that's not a problem. For others, like wights and wraiths, it makes little difference to the difficulty of the fights in general, because it's likely you won't be able to cure the damage from each fight. Additionally, it's quite likely that the fleeing undead will either gather reinforcements (if intelligent) or stay with other challenges (if not).

 

[MerricB]

Depends a bit on how many undead you turn.

If you turn the entire group, and they can escape (most likely with the incorporeal undead, then you've just delayed the encounter.

If you turn the entire group, and they can't escape, then you just cut them down.

If you turn half the group (and half escape), you split the encounter into two easier encounters.

Reinforcements shouldn't be a problem - if the undead are intelligent, they should look for reinforcements anyway, regardless of your turning attempt.

Given that a non-Radiant Servant focused on Turning will probably get Sun domain anyway (1 greater turning a day), and there's also the disciple of the sun feat...

Cheers!

 

[Storyteller01]

Classes that are nothing but "base class A, only better/more extreme", I couldn't care less about.

These are okay if done properly. FFG has a Sun Mage (modified sorcorer) that's rather nice. Con is the base stat, with fire being your focus (no cold spells, and no spells at all if you can't meditate in the sun for an hour [after your 8 hours of rest; overccast is okay]). Great for an Aztec based culture I'm working on.

 

[Cthulhudrew]

So perhaps your problem isn't with the prestige classes, which do what they're intended to do perfectly, but with the design concept of multiclass prestige classes that lean heavily on abilities learned before entering the class.

I think you may be onto something there. Further reading of various PrCs has made me realize that I like the tighter "concept" classes- themed around organizations, etc.- as opposed to the more "generic" classes where the design concept seems little more than a vague idea. The Street-Fighter (from CAdv), to me, seems like one of the latter, as does the Darkwood Stalker I mentioned. Even in areas where I don't like or feel I can use the class/organization presented IMC (without changes), the classes that seem to have a more solid design concept appeal to me much more.

To extend this, I find that PrCs found in more recent materials- campaign specific ones in FR books, Frostburn PrCs, etc- are much tighter classes than many of the "Complete" books. The new format for PrCs helps a lot, as I think it really requires designers to have a more thorough understanding of just what it is they are trying to create, as opposed to filling the simple introductory paragraph "explanation."

 

[Cthulhudrew]

Cthulhudrew: I basically agree with your criticism, but I think that the PrCs are best used when describing factions, organizations and other background elements of the campaign world. When they are used in conjunction with it, and not apart from it, only as rule mechanics, or 2nd edition kits, if you see what I mean.

I definitely see what you mean. Reading Estlor's post, and looking back at my original post, I think part of my biggest problem is that I was looking at these PrCs with an eye towards modifiying them to fit or create organizations/factions, etc. for my campaign world so that they would be more than, as you say kit-type classes. The problem is that, from a design standpoint, the classes I seem to have the most criticism with don't appear to have had any such underlying structure in mind, so that it's like trying to force square blocks into round holes.

The PrCs I want to have will be something that can't be gained, essentially, through simple multiclassing, and so the PrCs that seem to be more like Ftr/Wiz-plus, are less appealing to me than something more specific.

 

[Psychic Warrior]

Depends a bit on how many undead you turn.

If you turn the entire group, and they can escape (most likely with the incorporeal undead, then you've just delayed the encounter.

If you turn the entire group, and they can't escape, then you just cut them down.

If you turn half the group (and half escape), you split the encounter into two easier encounters.

Reinforcements shouldn't be a problem - if the undead are intelligent, they should look for reinforcements anyway, regardless of your turning attempt.

Given that a non-Radiant Servant focused on Turning will probably get Sun domain anyway (1 greater turning a day), and there's also the disciple of the sun feat...

Cheers!

This is why I loved the 'miracle' feats from the S&SS classbook Player's Guide to Clerics & Druids. They give the cleric other options to use his turning ability to get stuff like - flaming weapon for a few rounds (+1d6 damage), buff up their curing spells, gives morale boosts etc (plus evil ones for those negative energy channellers). The cleric in my game uses the flaming weapon one to good use on many occasions.