What Bugs Me About Prestige Classes

[FireLance]

Well, the overpowered PrCs clearly do overshadow the other party members and are more effective than others.

I think it really depends on the party composition. Does it matter if the party healer takes a PrC that makes him a better healer? It shouldn't if nobody else in the party is primarily focused on healing as he wouldn't be stealing anybody's schtick.

Does it matter if the party blaster (offensive spellcaster) takes a PrC that makes him a better blaster? This one is more tricky. If he starts to dominate combat to the extent that other combat-focused characters start to feel overshadowed, then it could be a problem. Of course, the DM can always re-balance the encounters more in favor of the other characters, e.g. by including more opponents with spell resistance, energy resistance or energy immunity.

Does it matter if the party rogue takes a PrC that makes him a better fighter than the party fighter? I'd say that this one will cause problems. However, this will not cause problems in all parties. In a party where the rogue is the primary fighter (perhaps he also has swashbuckler levels), it should be perfectly fine because he isn't stealing anybody's schtick.

Bah. You're just being reasonable. You dealt with the issue of the relatively balanced multiclass PrCs rather than the overly specialized or broken ones.

See my comments above. A PrC that is "broken" because it allows a character to be better at his schtick is not as bad as one that allows a character to steal another one's schtick.

Overly specialized is another matter. It is simply an issue of the DM getting the mix of challenges right. As a DM, if the PC ranger selects undead as his favored enemy, would you go out of your way to avoid undead encounters? Go out of your way to include them? Not think too much about it and use whatever creatures you feel like regardless? However you go about it, hopefully every player will feel that his character was useful and made a significant contribution to the success of the group. In my view, the same approach should apply to specialized PrCs.

 

[Phazeal]

Schtick shared

See my comments above. A PrC that is "broken" because it allows a character to be better at his schtick is not as bad as one that allows a character to steal another one's schtick.

This is my mini gripe too.

My guys prefer (generally) to have their own area of speciality. But the multitude of PrC's around allow players to take a couple of levels here, a couple of levels there, and duplicate some or all of everyone else's cool abilities. And so now they ALL do it, me included, just to keep up.

I think they will remedy this next edition, hopefully.

P

 

[MerricB]

This is my mini gripe too.

My guys prefer (generally) to have their own area of speciality. But the multitude of PrC's around allow players to take a couple of levels here, a couple of levels there, and duplicate some or all of everyone else's cool abilities. And so now they ALL do it, me included, just to keep up.

Could you give some examples?

I know the idea of what you're talking about, but most of the multiclass type characters I've seen have been significantly weaker in their abilities than the specialist characters.

Overall they're on a par, but they regain it by versatility, and can find themselves in trouble against challenges that require someone at the top of their craft - especially for the challenges that require magic use.

Cheers!

 

[Gothic_Demon]

This is my mini gripe too.

My guys prefer (generally) to have their own area of speciality. But the multitude of PrC's around allow players to take a couple of levels here, a couple of levels there, and duplicate some or all of everyone else's cool abilities. And so now they ALL do it, me included, just to keep up.

I think they will remedy this next edition, hopefully.

P

Isn't this a DM issue? I tell my players that they have to qualify mechanically for a prestige class, that they have to (in-game) do the necessary work for a prestige class, and I tell my players that they must finish any prestige class before taking another one (they can only mix it with the core classes they had before they took levels in the prestige class).

This stops this whole issue dead.

 

[Li Shenron]

I've been looking through all the "Complete" books recently, as well as some other sources, to try to find some PrCs that would be suitable to use in a Mystara campaign setting, and what I'm finding more often than not are classes that "cherry pick" from abilities of two or more base classes, and don't really provide much new. To me, if a PrC doesn't provide something unique- more unique abilities than "standard" ones- then characters should have to multiclass.

I agree with you. It's understandable that the authors have an easier time just rehashing existing features into a prestige class instead of introducing something really knew, which would probably need more playtesting. But such a PrCl is very unneeded, and its only point is often to improve your "numbers"; it doesn't really bring something "new" to the game.
Furthermore I absolutely HATE PrCls which give out bonus feats of choice without any reason other than "filling a blank level".

I have mixed feelings about PrCls that make a weak combo more effective, often in a way that resembles AD&D multiclassing. A player looking for such a PrCl isn't exactly boosting his power IMO, but rather try not to be behind the others with his combo (a different thing, really). However, it still feels like putting stitches on something which could have been better since the start.

Anyway i am always in favor of applying some modifications to core classes (such as in UA) an lessening the multiclassing restrictions, so i usually have other options to help players making the character they want without necessarily taking PrCls.

 

[apesamongus]

I've been looking through all the "Complete" books recently, as well as some other sources, to try to find some PrCs that would be suitable to use in a Mystara campaign setting, and what I'm finding more often than not are classes that "cherry pick" from abilities of two or more base classes, and don't really provide much new. To me, if a PrC doesn't provide something unique- more unique abilities than "standard" ones- then characters should have to multiclass.

Well, many PrCs seem, to me, to be designed to compensate for how crappy multiclassing is.

 

[Estlor]

With a prestige class that seems to be an uninspired "grab bag," you have to wonder what the purpose of the class is. One of the original design ideas behind a prestige class was to make it so anyone from any class could get into it*, there were just some roads that got there quicker. (*Keeping in mind that "any class" could be "any spellcasting class" for a deliberately spellcasting-oriented prestige class). Most prestige classes, when you pick them apart, are keyed into one base class more than another. Because that class is attempting to be a more refined version of the base class, certain aspects carry over. For example, a class that grants you sneak attack bonus is probably trying to be viable for a rogue without hamstringing their sneak attack because it is applicable to the concept. On the other hand, if sneak attack is absent, they make the player choose between the concept or the mechanics... is sneak attack so important to you that you simply don't fit the concept any longer?

The Darkwood Stalker is a sneaky ranger/rogue multiclass that gets a few additional abilities not found on the roster of the ranger and the rogue. Because those "few additional abilities" aren't the entire crux of the class, they allow the ranger/rogue to continue to advance some of their class abilities that are useful to the new prestige class concept, making it more attractive to a player that wants the death attack but doesn't want to be evil, lose its benefits against specific creature types, or fall way behind in sneak attack (because, to be honest, those both make perfect sense to a Darkwood Stalker type). Likewise, if you come from the fighter class, they don't want you to lack the favored enemy or sneak attack bonuses that are important to being an effective Darkwood Stalker.

So perhaps your problem isn't with the prestige classes, which do what they're intended to do perfectly, but with the design concept of multiclass prestige classes that lean heavily on abilities learned before entering the class.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

Does this lead anywhere?

"The overpowered PrCs" is a lot like "the koalas in Antarctica" - a lovely phrase without actually having any content. We really need specifics and, most importantly, play of these characters in several different campaigns.

There's been five years of specifics I've banned the broken ones from my campaign, so ther's little to gather from there. Of course, I have been unpleasantly surprised to find so-and-so "balanced" PrC turns out to be horribly broken in play.

In any event a PrC is not supposed to be more powerful than a base class once you take the pre-reqs into account, and I have yet to see a PrC for a non-multiclassed concept that actually matches the power of the class. Not once. So if the PrC is more powerful than the base class it's already overpowered.

I've heard a lot of talk over almost 5 years of the overpowered Cleric, but I'm yet to see one in my game. Heck, I'm lucky to see a pure cleric. Or even a character with any levels of cleric.

I don't know what you mean about "impure cleric" (multiclassed or PrC?) but I think it's mage jealousy. Mages have such terrible defenses (other than the somewhat... hell, the broken invisibility and polymorph spells) that it's very difficult for them to look at another full caster and not see this huge gap. However, I find clerical offensive spells to be weaker (generally direct damage is weaker, as well as save-or-suffer spells). But that's just my experience.

I have the feeling that there are characters that have the potential to be broken, but the player must actively work at breaking it. When I've played a cleric, it's been a particularly unbroken character, good at healing, casting bless and prayer and little else. I'm not sure that I'm in the minority, either.

Cheers!

What level were you? The complaints about clerics crop up at around 5th-level. IMO the problems with clerics are with spells, not with the class itself. It doesn't help when a cleric PrC is created that's just as good as the cleric and is then better besides, however. PrCs aren't supposed to be more powerful than base classes.

Of course, the DM can always re-balance the encounters more in favor of the other characters, e.g. by including more opponents with spell resistance, energy resistance or energy immunity.

This often becomes "shafting so-and-so player". I call it hidden nerfing if it's being used to punish a player like that. I'd rather take out the PrC than do something unfair like that to the players.

 

[jerichothebard]

The Radiant Servant of Pelor makes the cleric better at the unfun part of being a cleric (healing) at the cost of being worse at the fun part of being a cleric (melee combat - through a lower Hit Die, and a slightly reduced BAB). Turn Undead is fairly irrelevant.

Maybe in your campaign, but in mine, Turn Undead is highly relevant. And really ding-dongin' useful.

 

[fafhrd]

Don't get me wrong- I like the idea of Prestige Classes. I think they're a great way of a) specializing your character, and b) providing unique organizations and things in a campaign world. I just don't like how a lot of them seem to have been created. Anyone else notice/bothered by this? Or is it just me?

Just chalk it up to growing pains neccessary to move to a classless 4.0 system.