D&D 5E [+] What can D&D 5E learn from video games?

[Deset Gled]

Stealing these thoughts from my past self (i.e older threads on this subject).

- Gamism. Old school TTRPGs often erred on the side of simulationism. In the modern era, narritavism often seems to be at the forefront. Sometimes it's important to remember gamist principles. Video games are rife with gamism that can be extremely rewarding. Of course, I say this as someone who fondly remembers 3.Xe, so take this with a grain of salt.

- Teaching the rules as you go. This is a modern video game convention in the form of "tutorial levels", but one that could be very useful to bring players into the game.

- Railroading isn't always bad. This is obviously a much bigger hole to go down, but the existence of the single player video game market is basically proof that sometimes it's okay to railroad.

 

[overgeeked]

I am not sure how diegetic advancement works in a ttrpg, or what a skinner box is.

Diagetic just means in the fiction. Like a movie's soundtrack. Is the music only for the audience to hear (non-diagetic) or is the music actually being played in the fiction of the movie (diagetic)...therefore the audience can hear it. So diagetic advancement is things that don't necessarily have game mechanics attached, things like titles, getting followers, building a keep, powerful NPC owing you a favor, etc.

A skinner box is a behavior conditioner. Push the button, get the reward. Scientists put a lab rat into a Skinner box to train it to do something. If it pushes the lever it gets a treat. Reinforcing a specific behavior by rewarding it. In game terms, reward the behavior you want to see. You want PCs to charge in and kill everything, reward that behavior. You want the PCs to slow down and think things through, reward that behavior.

 

[Reynard]

Thanks

Diagetic just means in the fiction. Like a movie's soundtrack. Is the music only for the audience to hear (non-diagetic) or is the music actually being played in the fiction of the movie (diagetic)...therefore the audience can hear it. So diagetic advancement is things that don't necessarily have game mechanics attached, things like titles, getting followers, building a keep, powerful NPC owing you a favor, etc.

So how does that interact with crafting and stuff, which probably has in game benefits. Or does it just mean stuff outside your actual character's abilities? Is a magic sword "diegetic progression"?

A skinner box is a behavior conditioner. Push the button, get the reward. Scientists put a lab rat into a Skinner box to train it to do something. If it pushes the lever it gets a treat. Reinforcing a specific behavior by rewarding it. In game terms, reward the behavior you want to see. You want PCs to charge in and kill everything, reward that behavior. You want the PCs to slow down and think things through, reward that behavior.

So "reward the players with non mechanical benefits as a tool to get them to focus on certain aspects of play"? That makes sense.

 

[UngainlyTitan]

Absolutely. The interrupts killed all momentum.

Agreed

It's more of a mid-to-high level problem than a low level problem. Too many options, as you say.

No it is deeper than that. AC, Hit Points are wargame mechanics, in my opinion the 6 attributes are flawed as there are issue with what they cover. If one was to design the game from a table rasa, one would run with a different mechanic. But they are embedded into the fabric of D&D and remove them and the identity of the game is fundamentally different. I would add that spells as reliable exceptions to the general run of the rules as another D&D'ism that is foundational to the games identity.

I think that has the problem backwards. It's not the "roll dice, add numbers, declare result" part that slows things down. As you say, it's the decision making combined with far too many options. Putting that in the hands of a computer would require AI and basically eliminate the player's only contribution to the game, i.e. deciding what their character does.

My opinion here is that is the app took care of the add numbers element and even some of the DM maths like determining failure or success of save and tracking conditions one could include mathematically and procedurally more complex powers into the base game. For example in Baldur's Gate 3 weapons grant a type of short rest powers like cleave (that can strike two adjacent opponents), and there are others that cause bleeding damage or reduce the enemies saves and so forth. If the app tracked this and did the maths they would be viable mechanics in the tabletop game but would not currently as they not only add extra options but they add a lot more dice rolling and secondary arithmetic and condition tracking.

Trad vs storygames in the sense of how they're designed and the rules they use. Trad games like D&D are fundamentally designed differently than storygames like Masks: A New Generation. Looking at video games, it's easy to see that WoW and Disco Elysium or Journey are also designed fundamentally differently, with different mechanics and goals, etc. There can be story in D&D, sure. There's story in WoW, sure. But games designed primarily for story, with mechanics that reinforce that story and only that story, are different than more wide-open games.

Ok I thought you were speaking in the context of D&D only.

I've never met one. Most seem to start new campaigns to run specific modules rather than level up the module to suit the PCs that already exist.

That is more a side effect of the AP fashion than anything intrinsic in the module system.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Diagetic just means in the fiction. Like a movie's soundtrack. Is the music only for the audience to hear (non-diagetic) or is the music actually being played in the fiction of the movie (diagetic)...therefore the audience can hear it. So diagetic advancement is things that don't necessarily have game mechanics attached, things like titles, getting followers, building a keep, powerful NPC owing you a favor, etc.

A skinner box is a behavior conditioner. Push the button, get the reward. Scientists put a lab rat into a Skinner box to train it to do something. If it pushes the lever it gets a treat. Reinforcing a specific behavior by rewarding it. In game terms, reward the behavior you want to see. You want PCs to charge in and kill everything, reward that behavior. You want the PCs to slow down and think things through, reward that behavior.

Diagetic advancement is a staple of old school play, where your PC is expected to build/conquer a stronghold, gain followers, control a domain, send armies into battle, form congregations and guilds, perform magical experimentation, etc. The whole second half of the game might be about those things. Good stuff sadly drastically de-emphasized in many modern RPGs.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Thanks

So how does that interact with crafting and stuff, which probably has in game benefits. Or does it just mean stuff outside your actual character's abilities? Is a magic sword "diegetic progression"?

So "reward the players with non mechanical benefits as a tool to get them to focus on certain aspects of play"? That makes sense.

I would say crafting would definitely count as diagetic, in that you are advancing in the game specifically via actions your PC takes in the fiction. In that case it also provides numerical and/or ability advancement, but it doesn't have to.

 

[overgeeked]

Metroidvania: One of the defining features of Metroidvania games (e.g., Metroid, Castlevania, Hollow Knight, Ori and the Blind Forest, etc.) is non-linear progression that is often tied to exploration and discovery. These games often feature large interconnected maps, but areas or paths of the map may be inaccessible until the player acquires the right tool, item, weapon, ability, etc. that allows them to progress through those previously inaccessible areas. I recognize that this comes from D&D dungeon-delving, but I think that Metroidvania games often does this more intentionally and with greater cleverness.

Far, far greater cleverness. I think a lot of this has to do with player frustration and the desire to not backtrack. Players seem to see covering ground they already have as a waste of time. Checking out the work of Jennell Jaquays would be a huge first step in making dungeon maps better. Settling down and cooling it on the tons of monsters in every room would also help. You'd need some way to make these things explicit to the players so they wouldn't skip over them. Writing stuff on a 3x5 card and handing it to them as a reminder might work.

Cozy and Survival Games: Both of these game types, because there is definite overlap, often employ diagetic progression that involves crafting, harvesting, foraging, growing, and discovering the necessary items you need and upgrading what you have so that you can unlock more options. IME, these are powerful psychological drivers for players.

Yeah. This is definitely part of old-school play. Sadly gone now from the modern game.

MMOs and MOBAs: Having combat roles helps players understand what they are signing up for when they select a given class/character. I don't think that MMOs provide the best model for combat roles; however, I do think that MOBAs provide a better model for TTRPGs for several reasons. (1) MMO combat roles (and "the holy trinity") often involve managing aggro mechanics, enrage timers, etc. that are mostly non-applicable to NPCs played by a GM. (2) MOBA roles/classes (depending on the game's nomenclature) are more varied and informative than in MMO's: e.g., melee damage, ranged damage, mage support, mage control, bruiser, tank (less about aggro and more about absorbing damage, initiating fights, and peeling opponents for the team), etc.

Combat roles in 4E weren't perfect but they were so wonderfully helpful. I wish they went further and had non-combat roles for various activities. Roles for overland travel. Roles for dungeon delving. Nothing hefty mechanically, but explicit roles for PCs to fulfill.

I think a manageable aggro mechanic would be fantastic. Better than 4E's marked condition and much better than 5E's...nothing.

And considering how many new referees seem to have trouble knowing what to do in fights, having monster roles and even rudimentary "AI" for the referee to follow would be amazing for onboarding new referees.

MOBAs again: MOBA character options often involve a character with a relatively small selection of powers: i.e., a basic attack, a character-specific passive, three abilities, and an ultimate ability. As a result, MOBAs often feature a large cast of characters with limited powers; however, each of these characters are often designed to deliver a specific archetypical fantasy. There are even a few upcoming MMOs, like Wayfinder, that are designed with MOBA style characters. One benefit, IME, of this design choice is that it's fairly easy for players to

It seems the tail of of this was cut off.

There's also immersive sims. The genre I think most associated with old school play. Everything was pointed to putting the players and their characters bodily into the world the PCs inhabited. Things like encumbrance, food and water, torches and light management, etc.

 

[overgeeked]

So how does that interact with crafting and stuff, which probably has in game benefits. Or does it just mean stuff outside your actual character's abilities? Is a magic sword "diegetic progression"?

Diagetic is mostly used to mean things that only affect the fiction and not the mechanics. So a +1 sword would not be, but a keep or title would be. It's a non-mechanical, in-fiction benefit.

So "reward the players with non mechanical benefits as a tool to get them to focus on certain aspects of play"? That makes sense.

Basically, yes.

The particular example that brought these up connected them, but the terms are not always linked. Diagetic and Skinner box don't always have to go together. For example, you can also mechanically reward the behavior you want from the players. I'm sure you know this, I'm just adding it for clarity.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Far, far greater cleverness. I think a lot of this has to do with player frustration and the desire to not backtrack. Players seem to see covering ground they already have as a waste of time. Checking out the work of Jennell Jaquays would be a huge first step in making dungeon maps better. Settling down and cooling it on the tons of monsters in every room would also help. You'd need some way to make these things explicit to the players so they wouldn't skip over them. Writing stuff on a 3x5 card and handing it to them as a reminder might work.

Yeah. This is definitely part of old-school play. Sadly gone now from the modern game.

Combat roles in 4E weren't perfect but they were so wonderfully helpful. I wish they went further and had non-combat roles for various activities. Roles for overland travel. Roles for dungeon delving. Nothing hefty mechanically, but explicit roles for PCs to fulfill.

I think a manageable aggro mechanic would be fantastic. Better than 4E's marked condition and much better than 5E's...nothing.

And considering how many new referees seem to have trouble knowing what to do in fights, having monster roles and even rudimentary "AI" for the referee to follow would be amazing for onboarding new referees.

It seems the tail of of this was cut off.

There's also immersive sims. The genre I think most associated with old school play. Everything was pointed to putting the players and their characters bodily into the world the PCs inhabited. Things like encumbrance, food and water, torches and light management, etc.

Dwarf Fortress!

 

[Reynard]

I would say crafting would definitely count as diagetic, in that you are advancing in the game specifically via actions your PC takes in the fiction. In that case it also provides numerical and/or ability advancement, but it doesn't have to.

Diagetic is mostly used to mean things that only affect the fiction and not the mechanics. So a +1 sword would not be, but a keep or title would be. It's a non-mechanical, in-fiction benefit.

I think I get it now.

It means that when your character does something in the fiction, the character receives a reward (or consequence, I guess) in the fiction -- which may or may not come with a mechanical benefit or consequence. Like, if my character made armor out of the hide of a dragon I had slain, it would add prestige and the character would look cool at court -- irrespective of whether the dragon hide armor gave you fire resistance or whatever.