D&D 4E What can Next do to pull in 4e campaigns?

[Wulfgar76]

My problem here is that D&D Next isn't even close to Dungeon World at any of those three things and 13th Age leaves it looking half-baked at two of them - and that's only when we stay under the D&D umbrella.

I've never played those games. My experience is limited to the various editions of D&D.

I will say that those three things, in my opinion, provide a vastly better tabletop experience than that of 4th edition and 3rd Edition and its variants. If you'd like to discuss D&D Next compared to the previous two editions we can.

A game that measures areas of effect in feet is not good at theater of the mind at all.

Did you mean to say squares? What is better than real-world measurements for Theater of Mind?

 

[Obryn]

Did you mean to say squares? What is better than real-world measurements for Theater of Mind?

Zones, like in 13A and Fate Core are better for TotM combat. They can be managed without reference to precise measurements and don't need precise visualizations of positioning.

Using feet, volumes, radius, etc. isn't so much TotM as it is an "imaginary grid." The entire system is assuming there's a precise battle map - that, at any time, you could pause your TotM combat and put minis down in the right positions.

 

[Desdichado]

Thanks, [MENTION=2525]Mistwell[/MENTION] and [MENTION=61867]Wulfgar76[/MENTION]. Sounds like WotC is essentially saying that they're not willing to kill the sacred cow of levels in D&D, but that they are willing to finally seriously corral it.

Not a bad idea. I recently noodled around the notion of getting rid of levels and all of the problems that they bring, but decided that there wasn't any way to get rid of it and really still feel like how D&D is supposed to feel.

 

[Desdichado]

Zones, like in 13A and Fate Core are better for TotM combat. They can be managed without reference to precise measurements and don't need precise visualizations of positioning.

Using feet, volumes, radius, etc. isn't so much TotM as it is an "imaginary grid." The entire system is assuming there's a precise battle map - that, at any time, you could pause your TotM combat and put minis down in the right positions.

The presence of feet doesn't necessarily imply the imaginary grid. It's also the measurements that we're most familiar with from our everyday experience in real life.

 

[Wulfgar76]

Thanks, @Mistwell and @Wulfgar76. Sounds like WotC is essentially saying that they're not willing to kill the sacred cow of levels in D&D, but that they are willing to finally seriously corral it.

Not a bad idea. I recently noodled around the notion of getting rid of levels and all of the problems that they bring, but decided that there wasn't any way to get rid of it and really still feel like how D&D is supposed to feel.

Levels still give you plenty of stuff - like class abilities, extra attacks and hit points - they just don't give you (much) of a bonus to your attack roll.

If you've ever suffered the torture of a high-level 3e/4e game, you'll like Bounded Accuracy I think.

 

[Obryn]

The presence of feet doesn't necessarily imply the imaginary grid. It's also the measurements that we're most familiar with from our everyday experience in real life.

No, but combined with AoE spells, opportunity attacks, etc., it tends towards it. There's a lot of stuff in D&D that pays a great deal of attention to rather precise positioning.

I'm not saying it's impossible, by any means, but I don't think it lends itself as well to TotM as something easier to track does. Usually, the DM just determines (for example) based on his mental map that you catch 5 orcs in your fireball.

In a more TotM-friendly rule set, these approximations are the actual rules rather than just guesses.

 

[Desdichado]

That's certainly true, and certainly fair. IIRC, you've got a fair bit of experience with systems outside of D&D. Theater of the Mind is a priority to me; I've always disliked any iteration of tactical gameplay in D&D that drives towards an actual physical representation of the combat, so if that's a priority of 5e, that's a good sign to me. But I see your point; if you've already been involved in games that assume TotM play, then it's possible that D&D hasn't gone nearly far enough.

But if it plays about the same as my old games of BD&D in terms of TotM, that's good enough for me. Not every game has to be Feng Shui, I guess.

 

[Obryn]

But if it plays about the same as my old games of BD&D in terms of TotM, that's good enough for me. Not every game has to be Feng Shui, I guess.

Yeah, it's no worse at it than D&D has ever been, but it'll be harder than BECMI because of the OA issue and a few other bits and pieces.

I'm more grumbling about the missed opportunity than anything else.

 

[Alexander Wilson]

For me the damage has been done. What wotc should have emphasised more is that 'there is no need to update to Next'. My personal feeling was that there was pressure on the community to 'get everyone' updated to 5ed.

And when I say pressure, imagine levelling up a character to 8th level. That may take a year, and the playtest ran for roughly a year. *I'll look up the exact dates later*.

I know I came into D&D 4ed later on, like some say in the thread they were getting fatigue! I wasn't at that stage. So it felt like "ripping everything out" in order to lay some new seeds. It's been quite depressing from an organiser side of thing. Yet, I am old enough and will be looking forward to good things.

I'm left wondering how deplaced some younger gamers will feel about the switch after spending time and effort to learn the rules. I hope they don't get deflated as D&D is a great game. I really wish they had kept 4ed though and just opened up the rest of Toril, and maybe released an Essentials 2nd edition to combat the '4ed' fatigue.

When it was announced a new edition. I felt the spin! alot. I've brought Scourge of the Sword Coast. Will run it as best as I can. But I have no hesitation in saying its going to mentally wipe me out

 

[Neonchameleon]

That's certainly true, and certainly fair. IIRC, you've got a fair bit of experience with systems outside of D&D. Theater of the Mind is a priority to me; I've always disliked any iteration of tactical gameplay in D&D that drives towards an actual physical representation of the combat, so if that's a priority of 5e, that's a good sign to me. But I see your point; if you've already been involved in games that assume TotM play, then it's possible that D&D hasn't gone nearly far enough.

But if it plays about the same as my old games of BD&D in terms of TotM, that's good enough for me. Not every game has to be Feng Shui, I guess.

Call me greedy but in 2014 Feng Shui is about where I consider the entry level for enabling theatre of the mind to be for a new game. Next isn't going to be very different from either version of AD&D (other than that I suspect eating an OA is a tactical choice in Next rather than a prelude to running away) and only slightly worse than RC or BECMI.

Oh, and Dungeon World and 13th Age both have SRDs.