D&D 4E What can Next do to pull in 4e campaigns?

For world builders and sandboxers and players that want that information to play off of an invested GM's world or sandbox, it is helpful. But 1-2 pages of canon, especially with mechanical information interlaced with narrative fluff, does not make for agile table handling time (in comparison to the alternative outlined above).

And something about this is insulting? I don't understand and it isn't of particular use to anyone reading this thread. If you want to discuss it further, by all means PM me.
I find 1-2 pages of "extensive (exhaustive?) ecology, organization, spectrum of species behavior, etc." a lot more useful at the table than DW-style keywords. (I have experience with both, in case that's not clear.) To me, the implication that I want this extensive information for the purposes of notching my belt or running a strict canon game sometime down the road (rather than playing the game right now) is otherizing and insulting.

If you want to take this to PMs (or another thread) then I'll respect that--but the onus is on you to switch the venue.
 

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To me, the implication that I want this extensive information for the purposes of notching my belt or running a strict canon game sometime down the road (rather than playing the game right now) is otherizing and insulting.

Accruing setting knowledge for later use as a player in a game (or even running a game) equals "notching my belt;" "yup, I know this stuff now so I'm good to go if I'm in a future game that finds it useful."

I hope you're now sufficiently convinced that I'm not insulting or "othering" you. If not then I guess we're just stuck as we have definitely run through the useful life of this angle.
 

Accruing setting knowledge for later use as a player in a game (or even running a game) equals "notching my belt;" "yup, I know this stuff now so I'm good to go if I'm in a future game that finds it useful."

I think the confusion comes from your unusual use of that phrase "notch in your belt." It's not typically used like that, though that may be a dictionary definition of the phrase. Normal societal use is to connote "a selfish achievement." Often it's something associated with how many people you've slept with.
 

I think the confusion comes from your unusual use of that phrase "notch in your belt." It's not typically used like that, though that may be a dictionary definition of the phrase. Normal societal use is to connote "a selfish achievement." Often it's something associated with how many people you've slept with.

Interesting. That usage is absolutely foreign to me. I have no idea of the current usage in popular culture nor am I well versed in its etymology but the usage of the idiom I've always understood (and used) is the very benign usage here.

"A success or achievement that might help you in the future is a notch on your belt."

Maybe I'm just old.
 

Interesting. That usage is absolutely foreign to me. I have no idea of the current usage in popular culture nor am I well versed in its etymology but the usage of the idiom I've always understood (and used) is the very benign usage here.

"A success or achievement that might help you in the future is a notch on your belt."

Maybe I'm just old.

I'm 41 and that's pretty much the only connotation I've heard it used as: "She was just another notch in his belt" etc. So, yeah, when I read your statement it came across as more than just a little pejorative.

FWIW :)

Cheers,
Colin
 

So, speaking as someone who is currently running 3 D&D Next games, started playing with 3E in 2000ish, and ran a five year 4E game (and for several years, had 2-3 4E games at the same time)....

1) Note: 4E is my favorite published edition of D&D (NEXT is my new favorite, but it's not out yet, so, yeah). I love the tactical combat, and I am a lazy, lazy, LAZY, DM. I routinely don't bother prepping till my players are pulling their chairs out to sit down. Laaaazy.

If you guys want details about the games, feel free to PM me, but one is a game with a group of kids (primarily 11-12 year olds), the other a group of coworkers (mid to late 20s).

Kids Group - Paladin, Druid, Wizard, Sorcerer, Monk, Cleric, Ranger
Coworkers Group - Barbarian, Rogue, <redacted>, Bard, Cleric, Monk

Anyway, some thoughts so far.

1) DM'ing is a cross between 3.5 & 4E. Prep is minimal. I routinely still don't prep till game starts. Thankfully, they have kept the ease of DM'ing from 4E for the most part. Now, they do have spells occasionally listed and not fully described, but the current reason I've heard for not having the full description out for the spells is that the spells aren't done being changed - which makes sense, I've gone through multiple separate spells documents already. They are erring on the side of "buff spells / fire and forget spells", and in many cases, put notes as to what the spells do int the monster entry. My understanding is that the current plan is to have all abilities listed out under a monster, so the DM won't have to scurry to a book.

The fluff of the monster is fun, in that they give enough fluff to make the abilities they have on the monster make sense. Which is pretty cool.

I actually prefer DM'ing 5th as opposed to 4th, because I think it's actually easier. I reserve the right to modify this as we get higher level, admittedly. :D

Combat - classes have roles, if the players choose them. In my coworker game, the players went away from those options - but in my other game (with the kids), they've all embraced their roles. That group is also terrified of me as a DM, and think I exist to destroy all of their characters over and over again. In related news, we have three healers in that group. :D (Cleric / Druid / Paladin). The Paladin also went a protective route. So, the idea of roles are very much present in each class, however one doesn't have to choose them. This is more because you have many of the "classes" from 4E all rolled into a single class, with the option of which path to choose.

Tactical Combat - If I can be bothered to fish my map out of my car (I mentioned I'm lazy, right), it plays pretty much like 4E combat with my coworkers. The kids play it like they played 4E combat, but as you can imagine, its far more...creative then normal 4E anyway, sooo, not sure if they're a good example. :D (Kicking the Vampire in the Groin was a power I had to come up with for them, to put it in perspective).

Creation of Monsters: IIRC, there is a level based table for AC / attack / damage. Prof bonus basically is the atk by level (plus attribute), and AC is really what armor they're getting or 12 + prof bonus of the level of the creature. Damage by level is the only specific part they give in a table.

Here's the thing that really sticks out to me - this is the best edition for growing the pie that I've played. The kids sort of liked PF, they liked 4E, they love NEXT. For folks who've never rolled a d20 before, this is a fantastic game, and I'm convinced that is their target audience, more so than anything.

TL;DR - as an avowed 4E fan/DM, 5E has me pretty hooked. Which is nice, because I was worried that DM'ing would be 3E all over again.

Neon, Pemerton, if you have any more detailed questions, feel free to PM me.
 

Yikes. Unquestionably there are people like this, but I found the implicit grouping insulting and ignorant.
In my reply to you upthread I said that I don't derive the contents of the gameworld by "organic" or "naturalistic" extrapolation but rather impose the contents by stipulation based on what I feel will push the game in the right way here and now.

I assume that you use the ecological/demographic etc info to do what I don't: derive the contents of the gameworld by "organic" or "naturalistic" extrapolation. In my mind, at least, that fits with your description of your game as a sandbox.

Isn't how aboleths fit into mythic history one of your decisions when developing your play setting?
Perhaps. But then isn't working out how they reproduce, what they eat, and what the ratio of kuo-toa to aboleths is also a decision to be made when running the game?

I'm not a particularly good author of mythic conflict. So I pay somene else to do it (Monster Manuals, modules etc).

Presumably dd.stevenson also finds it convenient to have someone else write up the campaign's ecology/demography.
 

Interesting. That usage is absolutely foreign to me. I have no idea of the current usage in popular culture nor am I well versed in its etymology but the usage of the idiom I've always understood (and used) is the very benign usage here.

"A success or achievement that might help you in the future is a notch on your belt."

Maybe I'm just old.
Yeah, Mistwell is right: I thought (apparently wrongly) you were using a double entendre to be passive aggressively insulting. Also I still object to the grouping: pre-session prep is not where the 2E MM especially shines for me. (Pre-session I could make a lot of that stuff up on my own, if I needed to. At the table on the fly? Not so much.)

In my reply to you upthread I said that I don't derive the contents of the gameworld by "organic" or "naturalistic" extrapolation but rather impose the contents by stipulation based on what I feel will push the game in the right way here and now.

I assume that you use the ecological/demographic etc info to do what I don't: derive the contents of the gameworld by "organic" or "naturalistic" extrapolation. In my mind, at least, that fits with your description of your game as a sandbox.

Perhaps. But then isn't working out how they reproduce, what they eat, and what the ratio of kuo-toa to aboleths is also a decision to be made when running the game?

I'm not a particularly good author of mythic conflict. So I pay somene else to do it (Monster Manuals, modules etc).

Presumably dd.stevenson also finds it convenient to have someone else write up the campaign's ecology/demography.
It`s a couple of things. (1) I don`t know ahead of game which direction the players will go, and prepping ecological information of that breadth and depth for the entire set of D&D monsters is not a realistic option. But give me the 2E MM and a 5 minute break, and I have everything I need to set up a simulacrum that will react plausibly to the PCs incursions. (2) Since the players will form plans based on monsters acting like they have in the past, it`s important for me to be consistent about this stuff. So even if I make it up myself on the fly, I`ll still need to compile a repository of established behavior, and refer to it a lot during play. And I`d much rather pay someone than do it myself, because it`s a pain in the tuckus. (3) Hopefully the pro writers are actually better at this craft than I am, but that`s just an added bonus.

I don`t use the detail in the MM to plan long term stuff very often, although obviously that information does come into play sometimes. But that information is rarely causal. (i.e., I decide the ankhegs are going to go bother the borderland villages, and then I fish around in their MM entry to come up with a consistent in-world reason for this behavior.)

(I`m happy to discuss this a lot more if it interests you, but manbearcat has a point: I don`t think the 2E MM is especially on topic for this thread.)
 

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