D&D 4E What can Next do to pull in 4e campaigns?

I've never, ever wished for less of the sociological or ecological info. That stuff is the bread and butter of my sandbox game
I guess it's not that surprising that people are looking for different things from a Monster Manual. And I'm glad there's someone benefitting from that info! - that stuff just drives me nuts, from my point of view clogging up the entry with needless information that changes the tone from mythic fantasy to something much drier and textbook-like. (If elaboration is needed: I don't derive the contents of the gameworld by "organic" or "naturalistic" extrapolation, which is what that ecological/demographic stuff seems to support. I impose the contents by stipulation based on what I feel will push the game in the right way here and now.)

Some of my issues with tone are also exacerbated by mixing in mechanical information with the descriptive stuff. I think that aspect of it could be fixed by better formatting without changing or eliminating the information you want. And that would at least improve things for me. Another improvement would be more attention to what falls under headings. If the "world building" stuff could be quarantined within a particular heading, I could more easily pass over it without missing stuff I'm expected to use to run the monster in a typical encounter.
 

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Some of my issues with tone are also exacerbated by mixing in mechanical information with the descriptive stuff. I think that aspect of it could be fixed by better formatting without changing or eliminating the information you want. And that would at least improve things for me. Another improvement would be more attention to what falls under headings. If the "world building" stuff could be quarantined within a particular heading, I could more easily pass over it without missing stuff I'm expected to use to run the monster in a typical encounter.
I agree totally with separating the rules tidbits from the world and myth information, but I do see one minor issue.

Of the three information types, one is universal (the game rule information) since it is the game "definition" of the monster, but the other two (mythological fit and world role and lifestyle) are world-specific.

Now, a Monster Manual needs the first, and could include the latter two for some assumed "default" world, while a setting book ought to have the latter two and could have the rules definition stuff as well for convenience. But I'll bet pennies to bricks of gold that there will be moans with any variant of this about "forcing me to buy the same stuff twice" or "making me buy this "default world" garbage that I won't use"...
 

I agree totally with separating the rules tidbits from the world and myth information, but I do see one minor issue.

Of the three information types, one is universal (the game rule information) since it is the game "definition" of the monster, but the other two (mythological fit and world role and lifestyle) are world-specific.

Now, a Monster Manual needs the first, and could include the latter two for some assumed "default" world, while a setting book ought to have the latter two and could have the rules definition stuff as well for convenience. But I'll bet pennies to bricks of gold that there will be moans with any variant of this about "forcing me to buy the same stuff twice" or "making me buy this "default world" garbage that I won't use"...
I think it's even worse than that, isn't it?

Isn't some sort of "mythic history" inherent to some monsters? Devils and demons most obviously, but perhaps also mind flayers and aboleths. And surely efreeti, by default, come from the City of Brass!

Whereas for others - say, spiders (who have a mythic connection to Lolth in 4e, but can easily be separated from that yet still be fully realised as spiders), or doppelgangers (who in 4e have what I would regard as an even more optional connection to Avandra) - the monster can exist and fully play its game role without any particular mythic history.

There are also some monsters whose "ecology" is inherent to their being - vampires, and probably ghouls, might be the best examples, but there are probably others I'm forgetting. (Otyughs? Maybe xorns too, whose only rationale seems to be to threaten to eat the PCs' gems.) Whereas for elementals, or ankhegs, or giant scorpions, ecology seems pretty optional.

But wherever WotC makes the call on which monsters fall into which of these categories, someone will be upset because they took a different view on whether or not myth or ecology was or was not inherent to some particular monster.
 

I agree totally with separating the rules tidbits from the world and myth information, but I do see one minor issue.

Of the three information types, one is universal (the game rule information) since it is the game "definition" of the monster, but the other two (mythological fit and world role and lifestyle) are world-specific.

Now, a Monster Manual needs the first, and could include the latter two for some assumed "default" world, while a setting book ought to have the latter two and could have the rules definition stuff as well for convenience. But I'll bet pennies to bricks of gold that there will be moans with any variant of this about "forcing me to buy the same stuff twice" or "making me buy this "default world" garbage that I won't use"...

I think it's even worse than that, isn't it?

Isn't some sort of "mythic history" inherent to some monsters? Devils and demons most obviously, but perhaps also mind flayers and aboleths. And surely efreeti, by default, come from the City of Brass!

Whereas for others - say, spiders (who have a mythic connection to Lolth in 4e, but can easily be separated from that yet still be fully realised as spiders), or doppelgangers (who in 4e have what I would regard as an even more optional connection to Avandra) - the monster can exist and fully play its game role without any particular mythic history.

There are also some monsters whose "ecology" is inherent to their being - vampires, and probably ghouls, might be the best examples, but there are probably others I'm forgetting. (Otyughs? Maybe xorns too, whose only rationale seems to be to threaten to eat the PCs' gems.) Whereas for elementals, or ankhegs, or giant scorpions, ecology seems pretty optional.

But wherever WotC makes the call on which monsters fall into which of these categories, someone will be upset because they took a different view on whether or not myth or ecology was or was not inherent to some particular monster.

I'm of the position that master heading silos and evocative keywords best handle these issues. Less, but the kind of less that informs (but doesn't saturate with canon) while simultaneously provoking, is more.

Consider the Dungeon World route. You have:

1) Monster Settings that silo creatures into a specific habitat, locale, etc. If a creature is under the subheading of "The Dark Woods" you get a provocative blurb that talks about what horrors and mysteries lurk in the deepest recesses of an ancient wood, about the blood-curdling scream of a wolf-man's howl, and a warning to travelers to hurry along the well-worn trails/do not stray and to keep your fires scant and your torches dim so as to not invite attention. Scary things lurk here. Contrast this with the blurb for "Twisted Experiments" and you have a very different sense of the abominations therein, their origin, and deranged sentience. You can certainly have a setting book and a monster manual which leverages this silo to advantage.

2) A singular Instinct such as "To feed", "To rule", "To pass on divine vengeance", "To perfect its concept", or "To multiply". If there is one guiding premise for these creatures' behavioral regime, this is it. These inform and provoke without restricting or saturating. There is guidance but room to create.

3) Tags such as "Horde", "Organized", "Intelligent", "Solitary", "Terrifying", "Magical", "Divine". These speak to how these creatures organize and their intrinsic nature. The deftness of these keywords allow for all manner of in-situ customization by being simultaneously informative and wieldy (minimal mental overhead).

4) Moves such as "Grant power for a price", "Charge (!)", "Extort", "Use the dark to advantage", "Inflict pain beyond measure", or "Hurl something or someone." These give the GM specific thematic ways to exert pressure upon PCs both in combat and out. They guide while not restricting and have minimal table handling time in their deployment (and minimal overhead required to internalize the concept).

Then of course you have a small, few sentence blurb which typically conveys a short story (perhaps an old man in an inn warning travelers) and the mechanical stat block (et al) which will synergize with the above themes and concepts. Each of these individual, bite-size entries are mechanically and thematically weighty and allow for the manual to churn out 2 (perhaps even 3) monsters per (small) page.

I think both a specific Setting Book and Monster Manual could make use of this formatting. A Setting Book with acute distinctions from the general Monster Manual would primarily just have different Monster Settings which would silo the creatures away from the generic manual and silo them away from each other in the Setting Book.

However, again, it should be noted that it appears a certain cross-section of people are interested in D&D books as means of actual fiction. They want 1-2 pages of extensive (exhaustive?) ecology, organization, spectrum of species behavior, etc information on each creature. Presumably this is because the experience of reading the book itself, ingesting the vast swath of canon (and thus having that RPG notch on your belt for potential future use), and deeply ruminating on world-building (pre-game) is the primary point of purchase/ownership. For myself, the primary point of ownership is agile table functionality (meaning informative and provocative - thematically hefty - but not restrictive or overwhelming use at at the table + minimal table handling time). As @pemerton notes, you cannot make a layout that pleases both of us. The interests of utility and aesthetic are mutually exclusive.
 
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However, again, it should be noted that it appears a certain cross-section of people are interested in D&D books as means of actual fiction. They want 1-2 pages of extensive (exhaustive?) ecology, organization, spectrum of species behavior, etc information on each creature. Presumably this is because the experience of reading the book itself, ingesting the vast swath of canon (and thus having that RPG notch on your belt), and deeply ruminating on world-building (pre-game) is the primary point of purchase/ownership. (snip)
Yikes. Unquestionably there are people like this, but I found the implicit grouping insulting and ignorant.
 

Over the course of these recurring comparisons I have read many 2nd ed AD&D Monstrous Manual entries, and I have never been impressed by them. I find them poorly formatted with unintuitive headings, and to my mind they obsess over information that is irrelevant to me (eg how do aboleths procreate) and lack information that is helpful to me (eg how do aboleths fit into the mythic history of the gameworld).

Isn't how aboleths fit into mythic history one of your decisions when developing your play setting?
 

Yikes. Unquestionably there are people like this, but I found the implicit grouping insulting and ignorant.

I know many of these people personally and they would have no trouble with this definition. Whats more, I used to be precisely of this disposition. As such, it was neither meant as an insult and its clearly well-informed and not ignorant. Its merely a descriptor. If you wish to take offense, then have at it. I can't stop you. You may have the interest but have none (or a scant few) of the explanations of that interest that would place you within that cross-section. Nonetheless, that cross-section exists, I assure you (I'm living proof!), and it exists for those reasons. And it certainly isn't an insult.

People's tastes change. Sometimes (Often?) they even change back.
 

I know many of these people personally and they would have no trouble with this definition. Whats more, I used to be precisely of this disposition. As such, it was neither meant as an insult and its clearly well-informed and not ignorant. Its merely a descriptor. If you wish to take offense, then have at it. I can't stop you. You may have the interest but have none (or a scant few) of the explanations of that interest that would place you within that cross-section. Nonetheless, that cross-section exists, I assure you (I'm living proof!), and it exists for those reasons. And it certainly isn't an insult.

People's tastes change. Sometimes (Often?) they even change back.
Of course such people exist. It's the implicit grouping I was (explicitly) objecting to. Besides the cross-section you described, there are also table functionality reasons why a person would want 1-2 pages of detailed data about a species they're going to run in a campaign.
 

Of course such people exist. It's the implicit grouping I was (explicitly) objecting to. Besides the cross-section you described, there are also table functionality reasons why a person would want 1-2 pages of detailed data about a species they're going to run in a campaign.

I don't dispute that. I think you'll find them in:

ingesting the vast swath of canon (and thus having that RPG notch in your belt for potential future use), and deeply ruminating on world-building (pre-game)

For world builders and sandboxers and players that want that information to play off of an invested GM's world or sandbox, it is helpful. But 1-2 pages of canon, especially with mechanical information interlaced with narrative fluff, does not make for agile table handling time (in comparison to the alternative outlined above).

And something about this is insulting? I don't understand and it isn't of particular use to anyone reading this thread. If you want to discuss it further, by all means PM me.
 

I enjoy and enjoyed the 2E content, as mixed in quality as it sometimes was. That said, it's one of those things you only need early on, or if you're using an established world. I don't know how economically-feasible it would be, but I'd really love if they would just separate the fluff entries into their own books so you could have edition-neutral material on it instead of reprinting slight variations of that information over the years. It's great for that stuff to exist, but once you've learned it, it's just in the way of using a monster entry going forward.
 

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