What can protect PCs from Blasphemy with incredibly high CL?

[Kmart Kommando]

Everyone plays Belkar.

Seems like anytime a DM says 'no evil' or 'only good' it's always followed up with a cleric of slightly on the high end of the fair CR range using a Bead of Karma followed by Blasphemy.

Yet another reason why I say Lawful Evil is the best alignment.

We had a Psion with the PR/SR power up and the BBEG rolled really low, so he got away, and one guy was out of range by accident, I think the DM counted wrong, and the guy out of range bribed him with party loot to let us go.

1. BE Evil
2. Be rear guard, 45 feet away from the nearest party member at all times, and around the corner.
3. Ring of Blinking, 50/50
4 Be a slaad, sort of.

Oh, and Aligned Planar Mastery starts working when you enter an aligned plane, and lasts until you leave it. The Horizon Walker's whole thing is to adapt to wherever he is going.

 

[moritheil]

I don't agree with that reading.

You incur none of the penalties for having an alignment at odds with that of the plane, and spells and abilities that harm those of the opposite alignment don’t affect you.

Blasphemy isn't a penalty for having an alignment at odds with that of the plane; it's nothing to do with the plane. So the only clause that's potentially relevant is the second: spells and abilities that harm those of the opposite alignment don’t affect you.

So the question is - is Blasphemy a spell that harms those of opposite alignment?

A further and necessary question - does this mean "spells that harm only those of the opposite alignment"?

For example, if I use the Corrupt Spell feat from BoVD, and cast a Corrupted Fireball, I now have an [Evil] spell. It deals, say, 6d6 damage (3d6 Fire, 3d6 Unholy)... and it damages everyone. Evil, Neutral, Good. So it's certainly a spell that harms those of opposite alignment - it's an Evil spell and it harms Good people - but it also harms everyone else. Would Aligned Planar Mastery protect you from a Corrupted Fireball? I'd argue no... it's not a spell that harms only those of opposite alignment, and I think the example indicates that this is the intent of the sentence.

Now, Blasphemy is an Evil spell that doesn't only harm Good people... it harms Neutral people as well. As such, it's not a spell that harms only those of opposite alignment, and I think there's room to argue that as such, it is not deflected by Aligned Planar Mastery.

-Hyp.

Hyp, you seem to be assuming that the specific text of the second clause precludes the more general text in the first clause from working.

Blasphemy penalizes you for having an alignment at odds with evil (i.e. nonevil) so by the first clause your HW should be fine. Yes, the text for the specific ability says "plane," but the overall point of all the Horizon Walker abilities, as clarified in the general text for the class, is that these features function independent of plane, and this strongly implies that the mention of specific planes is just for thematic unity (i.e. Shifting, which grants Dimension Door (Sp), works even when not on a morphic plane.)

 

[Hypersmurf]

Oh, and Aligned Planar Mastery starts working when you enter an aligned plane, and lasts until you leave it. The Horizon Walker's whole thing is to adapt to wherever he is going.

He has Fire Resistance 20 wherever he goes, with Fiery Planar Mastery. He has Tremorsense wherever he goes, with Cavernous Planar Mastery. He can Dimension Door wherever he goes, with Shifting Planar Mastery.

The only one that specifies only working on a specific type of plane is Weightless.

-Hyp.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

I don't think there's any debate on this one: "The bonus Hit Dice count as regular Hit Dice for determining the effect of spells that are Hit Dice dependant."

-Hyp.

I remember some friends not agreeing with that, but eh. Too long ago to remember. I agree, should definitely work. I just wish these things had saves or Countersong worked like SR instead of a save replacement, because beating Blasphemy with Countersong would be so awesome!

 

[moritheil]

Oh, and Aligned Planar Mastery starts working when you enter an aligned plane, and lasts until you leave it. The Horizon Walker's whole thing is to adapt to wherever he is going.

Contradicted by the SRD:

Terrain Mastery
. . . Horizon walkers take their terrain mastery with them wherever they go.

Planar Terrain Mastery

Planar terrain mastery functions just like terrain mastery, except that the horizon walker can choose one of the planar categories at each level.

 

[Corsair]

The OP mentioned the example of +10 HD over the party, a fiend (ie, tasty outsider HD), and access to Blasphemy as a spell-like. CR of 7 over the party sounds like a good rough estimate to me, perhaps even modest. Granted, i don't much know (or care) about the later, heavily, excrutiatingly broken Monster Manuals, but the should NOT be such a fiend that's anywhere near the party's appropriate CR.

Grabbing the two examples from my previous post:

Half Fiend ...

... Ancient White Dragon = CR 21 - HD 30. At minimum paralyzation.

... Elder Elemental = CR 12 - HD 24. Death.



Damn that Monster Manual and System Reference Document with it's power creep! It gets even worse if you apply the template to an advanced monster. HD will go up three times faster than the CR often times.

Really though, this is just something that DMs have to watch out for on their own when making new creatures.

 

[Nifft]

The OP mentioned the example of +10 HD over the party, a fiend (ie, tasty outsider HD), and access to Blasphemy as a spell-like.

Man, what? We're talking about half-fiends. It's a template. Here's how it works with regards to hit dice:

Size and Type

The creature’s type changes to outsider. Do not recalculate Hit Dice, base attack bonus, or saves. Size is unchanged. Half-fiends are normally native outsiders.

-- N

 

[Hypersmurf]

Blasphemy penalizes you for having an alignment at odds with evil (i.e. nonevil) so by the first clause your HW should be fine.

I disagree with your reading there.

Alignment Traits
Some planes have a predisposition to a certain alignment. Most of the inhabitants of these planes also have the plane’s particular alignment, even powerful creatures such as deities. In addition, creatures of alignments contrary to the plane have a tougher time dealing with its natives and situations.

The alignment trait of a plane affects social interactions there. Characters who follow other alignments than most of the inhabitants do may find life more difficult.

Alignment traits have multiple components. First are the moral (good or evil) and ethical (lawful or chaotic) components; a plane can have either a moral component, an ethical component, or one of each. Second, the specific alignment trait indicates whether each moral or ethical component is mildly or strongly evident.

Good-Aligned/Evil-Aligned: These planes have chosen a side in the battle of good versus evil. No plane can be both good-aligned and evil-aligned.

Law-Aligned/Chaos-Aligned: Law versus chaos is the key struggle for these planes and their residents. No plane can be both law-aligned and chaos-aligned.

Each part of the moral/ethical alignment trait has a descriptor, either “mildly” or “strongly,” to show how powerful the influence of alignment is on the plane.

Mildly Aligned: Creatures who have an alignment opposite that of a mildly aligned plane take a –2 circumstance penalty on all Charisma-based checks.

Strongly Aligned: On planes that are strongly aligned, a –2 circumstance penalty applies on all Charisma-based checks made by all creatures not of the plane’s alignment. In addition, the –2 penalty affects all Intelligence-based and Wisdom-based checks, too.

The penalties for the moral and ethical components of the alignment trait do stack.

Neutral-Aligned: A mildly neutral-aligned plane does not apply a circumstance penalty to anyone.

The Material Plane is considered mildly neutral-aligned, though it may contain high concentrations of evil or good, law or chaos in places.

A strongly neutral-aligned plane would stand in opposition to all other moral and ethical principles: good, evil, law, and chaos. Such a plane may be more concerned with the balance of the alignments than with accommodating and accepting alternate points of view. In the same fashion as for other strongly aligned planes, strongly neutral-aligned planes apply a –2 circumstance penalty to Intelligence-, Wisdom-, or Charisma-based checks by any creature that isn’t neutral. The penalty is applied twice (once for law/chaos, and once for good/evil), so neutral good, neutral evil, lawful neutral, and chaotic neutral creatures take a –2 penalty and lawful good, chaotic good, chaotic evil, and lawful evil creatures take a –4 penalty.

These are penalties for having an alignment at odds with that of a plane. A completely independent effect that penalises you for being good is not a penalty for having an alignment at odds with that of a plane; it's a penalty for having an alignment at odds with that of the completely independent effect.

Aligned Planar Mastery might protect you from the completely independent effect because your alignment is that of the plane with regard to magic, but it won't be because of the penalty-for-having-an-alignment-at-odds-with-that-of-a-plane clause.

As an analogy: A bearded devil’s natural weapons, as well as any weapons it wields, are treated as evil-aligned and lawful-aligned for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. A bearded devil wields a glaive.

Can we take the sentences "Any weapons a bearded devil wields are treated as evil-aligned and lawful-aligned for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction" and "A bearded devil wields a glaive", and by substitution end up with the rule "Glaives are treated as evil-aligned and lawful-aligned for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction"?

Similarly, the clauses "penalties for having an alignment at odds with that of the plane", and "The plane's alignment is Evil", to end up with "penalties for having an alignment at odds with Evil"?

I would say no, you can't, in both cases.

-Hyp.

 

[Arkhandus]

Silence will prevent a Blasphemy's effect.

So, everyone just run around with Silence and Rary's Telepathic Bond active.


By the way Aligned planar terrain mastery is worded, it would seem that it protects you from Blasphemy whenever you're on a plane with an evil-dominant trait, but not the rest of the time.

Given this line: "You have the dominant alignment of the plane with regard to magic," in the class feature, it appears that as long as a Horizon Walker with that trait is on a plane such as Hades or Ba'ator, he or she counts as being of evil alignment for purposes of magic. So Blasphemy would not affect them as long as they're on that kind of plane.

Since they mimic the dominant alignment trait of whatever plane they're on, a Horizon Walker in the Prime Material Plane will be affected by Blasphemy just like any neutral creature would.

 

[Hypersmurf]

By the way Aligned planar terrain mastery is worded, it would seem that it protects you from Blasphemy whenever you're on a plane with an evil-dominant trait, but not the rest of the time.

The problem is the 'takes his terrain with him' clause.

He's on the Prime, but he carries a little piece of Hades or Ba'ator wherever he goes...

It's why I said earlier that it feels like they almost wanted it to be limited to when you're on an aligned plane, but never quite stated it.

-Hyp.