What Can We Learn from CRPGS?

[MGibster]

And you cannot socially interact over an MMO feed even remotely the same as with someone sitting across a table.

I gotta agree with you on this one. While I communicate with some of my fellow guild members in World of Warcraft, it is not on the same level as face-to-face communication.

 

[Jaeger]

YRMV.

I don't find the true sandbox settings to be restrictive at all. Whereas there are few if any truly sandbox TTRPGs.
...

All RPG's are sandbox ready by default.

People choose to use modules and "adventure paths" then run them with no GM input or modification by choice.

"Sandbox" computer games are not even close to as free form as a Sandbox RPG game.

Having the readily available visuals and on-demand convenience that computer games offer, seems to factor more into your gaming preference's scale than the things RPG's do that computer games simply cannot.

 

[Jaeger]

Given the roots of D&D can be found in table top war gaming, the idea that we're comparing apples to oranges is a bit off I think. And even if they were so far apart as to be incomparable, I've engaged in just as much socializing while playing Star Fleet Battles, Car Wars, Babylon 5 Wars, etc., etc. that I have with D&D or Cyberpunk 2020. Almost any kind of face-to-face gaming you're doing is an inherently social activity.

Limes to Lemons then.

For me. For wargames and even board games I simply do not get the same level of social interaction as I do from a RPG due to the fact that individual turns take much longer when you doing no interaction with others. Then you add the fact that you are role playing a character on top of it, and the type of dynamic social interaction and table banter offered by RPG's is in a different league compared to War or board games.

 

[aramis erak]

Given the roots of D&D can be found in table top war gaming, the idea that we're comparing apples to oranges is a bit off I think. And even if they were so far apart as to be incomparable, I've engaged in just as much socializing while playing Star Fleet Battles, Car Wars, Babylon 5 Wars, etc., etc. that I have with D&D or Cyberpunk 2020. Almost any kind of face-to-face gaming you're doing is an inherently social activity.

As have I. It's worth noting that SFB, B5W, Car Wars, and Starfire also are often played with multiple players (rather than just two). Car Wars also (intentionally) straddles the boardgame/rpg border.

YRMV.

I got into wargames in the early 70s, before RPGs spouted, and they were highly social, more so than TTRPGs ever have been; war gaming clubs were where RPGs were born.

I've run boardgaming clubs. I strongly reject your assertion that they're more social than TTRPG. (And if they are, there's something abnormal with your TTRPG experience.)
Especially since, the clubs I've participated in, and/or run, the boardgamers usually broke off into multiple smaller groups of 2-4 people most of the time, with zero social interaction outside that group, save polite hello's.
The public RPG groups I've been involved in almost always wind up with people showing early and spending time socializing, often doing so across group lines both before and after game.
Even my private RPG groups generally had 2-3 of the 4-7 people show early for socializing, and 2-3 stay late a bit to socialize. My sunday VOIP group, I log in 30-60 minutes early, and players dribble in to catch up; a different set stay after session. My experiences with boardgaming, even when with the same people, are that on a boardgaming day, we're there for the game, and the games we play in such circumstance are NOT ones where chatting during is practical. Advanced Civ, Pax Britannica, Dune, a full on 12 player starbase assault in SFB, a full run of Starfarers of Catan or Settlers of Catan with expansions and 6p... Games where the play is requiring active communication through the game.

Last time I played Hammer of the Scots was at a convention... I and my opponent moved to a quiet corner away and had zero conversation not focused on the game until after we'd played through. (I lost.)

 

[Jd Smith1]

All RPG's are sandbox ready by default.

People choose to use modules and "adventure paths" then run them with no GM input or modification by choice.

"Sandbox" computer games are not even close to as free form as a Sandbox RPG game.

Having the readily available visuals and on-demand convenience that computer games offer, seems to factor more into your gaming preference's scale than the things RPG's do that computer games simply cannot.

No, they're not. Most GMs are going to have some sort of plan to the scenarios played over 40 or 50 sessions; they'll be flexible, but few are going to make up extensive adventures just off the top of their head, and fewer still will improv well.

But in the sandbox games in video, you can literally spend hundreds of hours just wandering around dealing with the setting without even touching the core plotline.

I think your video experience may be dated, or have not led you to the cutting edge of the industry.

 

[Jaeger]

No, they're not. Most GMs are going to have some sort of plan to the scenarios played over 40 or 50 sessions; they'll be flexible, but few are going to make up extensive adventures just off the top of their head, and fewer still will improv well.

But in the sandbox games in video, you can literally spend hundreds of hours just wandering around dealing with the setting without even touching the core plotline.

I think your video experience may be dated, or have not led you to the cutting edge of the industry.

I must echo aramis erak in that it strikes me that there is something abnormal about your table top RPG experience.

Yes, RPG's are sandbox ready out of the gate. If you set up the campaign world correctly the "improv" is not nearly as hard as you think.

I run a star wars game set during the original trilogy - I have no "plot". After the initial session, everything cues off of the players drives, and what they want to do as the crew of their ship.

Yes you do need a GM that knows how to set this type of campaign up. But It is not as hard as you make it out to be, and the information/advice on how to do it is readily available.

Just because you can spend hundreds of hours wandering around a video game, doesn't mean that it will still have constraints a RPG does not.

If all you've known from RPG's is pre-written modules, pre-plotted adventure after adventure, and railroads, it seems that you have really been missing out.

I'm well aware of the cutting edge of the videogame industry. Members of my group work in it. RPG's still do things no videogame can match.

Your gaming preferences seem to lie more in line with what videogames have to offer than your experience with RPG's. That's perfectly fine.

 

[Jd Smith1]

I must echo aramis erak in that it strikes me that there is something abnormal about your table top RPG experience.

Yes, RPG's are sandbox ready out of the gate. If you set up the campaign world correctly the "improv" is not nearly as hard as you think.

I run a star wars game set during the original trilogy - I have no "plot". After the initial session, everything cues off of the players drives, and what they want to do as the crew of their ship.

Yes you do need a GM that knows how to set this type of campaign up. But It is not as hard as you make it out to be, and the information/advice on how to do it is readily available.

Just because you can spend hundreds of hours wandering around a video game, doesn't mean that it will still have constraints a RPG does not.

If all you've known from RPG's is pre-written modules, pre-plotted adventure after adventure, and railroads, it seems that you have really been missing out.

I'm well aware of the cutting edge of the videogame industry. Members of my group work in it. RPG's still do things no videogame can match.

Your gaming preferences seem to lie more in line with what videogames have to offer than your experience with RPG's. That's perfectly fine.

If the GM has to set up a campaign world, then the game isn't 'sandbox ready out of the box'. Yes, if a GM invests the time and trouble to work up hundreds of locations in advance, an RPG can be sandbox. But how often does that happen? I'm known for the extensive detail and long-term nature of the campaigns I run, (I've been GM'ing since 1979), but even I don't plug that level of effort into a campaign. The practice is that sooner or later the PCs encounter a plot hook.

Whereas Skyrim, to grab one game as an example, does literally come as a sandbox straight out of the box. Once you get past the avatar set-up, you can wander about pulling random encounters, random quests, home-building, Guild careers, life as a werewolf or vampire,
trade, trophy-gathering, crafting, and more for literally hundreds of hours. Before taking part in local politics and thinking about the core plotline.

And that's a game that's years old.

I've seen a lot of improv RPG campaigns, where unprepared GMs make stuff up off the top of their heads. If the players work with it, it can be OK. Every GM improvs and feeds of player speculation and drive; I do it literally every week. It's no substitute for preparation, but expectations vary from table to table.

But you've yet to point out what a CRPG can't do. In this era of professional voice actors, multi-layered conversation trees, co-op, online play, ever-more-comlex processing speed, and the like, TTRPGs are seriously challenged. Few GMs can manage the sheer volume of detail that a CRPG can deliver.

TTRPGs currently have an edge, but it is a slender one; VTTs have given them a extension, because it helps deliver a higher level of detail. But take a look at this site: there's always threads discussing dealing with problem players, problem GMs, the difficulty in getting groups together. How many posts have you seen where a gamer mentions that they have Game X or Game Y but have never managed to run a campaign in it? I know I've made that very post more than once. This site is frequented by hardcore gamers, the sort who will stay with the hobby to the bitter end, but we aren't the majority.

CRPG quality grows constantly. TTRPGs have gotten VTTs, publisher support is still fairly steady, and the Net has made fan-based work easily available, but there's not a huge amount of change pending.

 

[MichaelSomething]

If there's one thing TTRPGs can learn from video games, it's how to do iteration correctly.

I recall reading some advice from Sid Meier, the creator of the Civilization series of games. When making the next Civilization game, he would keep a third of the game as it, make adjustments to another third, and completely redo the last third. I believe that strike a good balance between being faithful to the spirit of the franchise and being able to make changes and improvements that a game may need.

 

[Jaeger]

If the GM has to set up a campaign world, then the game isn't 'sandbox ready out of the box'. Yes, if a GM invests the time and trouble to work up hundreds of locations in advance, an RPG can be sandbox. But how often does that happen? I'm known for the extensive detail and long-term nature of the campaigns I run, (I've been GM'ing since 1979), but even I don't plug that level of effort into a campaign. The practice is that sooner or later the PCs encounter a plot hook.
...

The GM always has to do prep for RPG's. Even to run an introductory module. Having to do some prep negate out of the box sandbox play? By that standard no RPG is ready to play so much as a starter set module 'out of the box', because the GM would have to still do some prep to run it. That's a ridiculous standard to hold over RPG's.

You don't have to work up 100's of locations in advance. That would be silly. You have a faulty idea of how much prep it takes to run a sandbox campaign.

You can do entire sandbox campaign with the PC's perusing their own goals. And the GM throwing possible Adventure Hooks aka the random quest at the PC's does not = railroad/non-sandbox. PC's always have a choice as the GM is not forcing them into some preplanned storyline for the campaign.

...Whereas Skyrim, to grab one game as an example, does literally come as a sandbox straight out of the box. Once you get past the avatar set-up, you can wander about pulling random encounters, random quests, home-building, Guild careers, life as a werewolf or vampire,
trade, trophy-gathering, crafting, and more for literally hundreds of hours. Before taking part in local politics and thinking about the core plotline.
...

Yes, that is the kind of sandbox play that is done by RPG's. many fantasy RPG's have random tables to roll on for all these kind of things. There is no core plotline in any well run campaign.

Seems you are comparing what you can do in videogames to the 'Adventure path' standard that has reared its head since 3e D&D.

But you've yet to point out what a CRPG can't do. In this era of professional voice actors, multi-layered conversation trees, co-op, online play, ever-more-complex processing speed, and the like, TTRPGs are seriously challenged. Few GMs can manage the sheer volume of detail that a Computer Game can deliver.

Point out what what videogames can't do? The obvious is obvious. And if they aren't obvious to you, then this whole little debate we are having is completely futile.

It's apparent that what you want out of your gaming experiences is more in line to what videogames deliver: You prefer the visual input and production values of videogames (willingly accepting their limitations to have it), to the minds eye of imagination. That's fine.

 

[Jd Smith1]

If there's one thing TTRPGs can learn from video games, it's how to do iteration correctly.

I recall reading some advice from Sid Meier, the creator of the Civilization series of games. When making the next Civilization game, he would keep a third of the game as it, make adjustments to another third, and completely redo the last third. I believe that strike a good balance between being faithful to the spirit of the franchise and being able to make changes and improvements that a game may need.

Excellent point.

Look at the XCOM, Far Cry, or Fallout series just to name a few: each new version was a massive improvement upon the last.

By comparison, 1e to 5e over three times that time has just become more bloated, with only modest changes and improvements.