What can you do with Diplomacy?

[willpax]

Is it correct to assume that dragons represent an extreme hard case?

After all, dragons can speak human languages, generally have whimsical or curious personalities, tend to think long term/big picture, and appreciate amusement. Although humans may not understand dragonkind, dragons do understand humans enough to know when humans are begging with a proper amount of deference.

So we could reasonably interpret this rule in a way that somewhat accords with both Mistwell and Joe B.: the dragon case represents a case where there is a large power differential, but the opponent is both knowledgable and reasonable (and not insanely aggressive). If those modifiers are not present (say, with a lawful evil extraplanar creature who knows nothing of humans except they are at its mercy), then the check can be made much more difficult. I think lack of a common language or set of signs should result in hefty penalties to diplomacy checks.

I think diplomacy is a useful enough skill as it is. As my group learned when a street fight erupted in front of the city guard: you don't have to persuade them to love you--just to dislike the other people more.

 

[Liminal Syzygy]

Joe, it isn't "my" reading of this skill.

Once again, the DMG is specific. A DC 25 diplomacy check is sufficient to persuade the Dragon that has captured you that it is a good idea to let you go.

As you know, this isn't listed under diplomacy but rather under the section on DC difficulties in the DMG. My reading is that this was meant to be a single datapoint of a general guideline to help DMs set task DCs.

You keep calling it a "rule" but I don't see this as a rule at all.

 

[Mistwell]

As you know, this isn't listed under diplomacy but rather under the section on DC difficulties in the DMG. My reading is that this was meant to be a single datapoint of a general guideline to help DMs set task DCs, not a hard and fast rule that someone who set a different DC would be violating (and call for a house rule).

Joe is saying you cannot do it, no matter what the DC. He's saying you can only do it with a culture you are intimately familiar with, and have knowledge ranks in, and only in non-hostile situations. I think the DCs certainly can change based on circumstance modifiers, but I do not think it is accurate to say it is linked to a knowledge check or cannot be used in hostile encounters.

 

[ConcreteBuddha]

If you guys think Diplomacy is bad, try Presence or Dominate.


(My personal house rule: Diplomacy works as written, except it can also work on PCs. Same DCs.)

 

[coyote6]

(My personal house rule: Diplomacy works as written, except it can also work on PCs. Same DCs.)

Ouch. Fear the evil bard.

GM: "Sorry, but before you can attack him, he uses his amazing etiquette, social grace, tact, subtlety, and way with words to persuade you that there's really no reason for you to want to fight with or harm him, and that everyone would be better off if you let him go on his way. Besides, the orphans deserve it; otherwise, the gods wouldn't have orphaned 'em, would they?"

Player: "Dammit, next time, we're casting silence on ourselves first thing!"

 

[ConcreteBuddha]

Ouch. Fear the evil bard.

GM: "Sorry, but before you can attack him, he uses his amazing etiquette, social grace, tact, subtlety, and way with words to persuade you that there's really no reason for you to want to fight with or harm him, and that everyone would be better off if you let him go on his way. Besides, the orphans deserve it; otherwise, the gods wouldn't have orphaned 'em, would they?"

Player: "Dammit, next time, we're casting silence on ourselves first thing!"

Yup, anything that works for the good guys should also work for the bad guys. Rules Hypocrisy is a very bad idea, IMHO.

(The mindbender PrC gets past that annoying silence spell. Telepathic speech with any creature that speaks a language at 100 ft. at level one. Plus, if the Courtier's Obi is not available (OA, +10 comp. bonus to Diplomacy), then the +6 comp bonus is nice.)