D&D 4E What changes aren't being made in 4E that you think should be

[Doug McCrae]

An all-powerful gish that kills opponents as easily with the strokes of his mighty blade as with burning balls of fire? I hope that kind of character is gone

Nah, clerics are still in.

 

[Cadfan]

I knew I'd regret throwing in the example - oh well. But you didn't really address the problem - a fighter/mage was "available" directly out of the 3.0 phb - it just wasn't a very good (or even viable) option.

Yeah, I know- what I was trying to say was this. If you want to mix martial and arcane power sources, you'll be able to do so through multiclassing, BUT, that will also require you to mix the roles the classes hold. So a fighter/wizard will be not only a martial/arcane character, but also a defender/controller. Likewise, a fighter/warlock will be not only martial/arcane, but also defender/striker.

The swordmage, from what we've seen so far, looks to be martial/arcane and defender/defender.

See the difference? If what you want is a defender/controller, great, you're set up already. If what you want is a defender who is martial/arcane, you might be out of luck for a while.

Regardless, that wasn't the main point - the main question is: how much "well, we'll address that later" is tolerable? We won't really know the actual answer until we see the books but then it becomes a viable question.

Well, the PHB can only be so thick. And its probably best to establish the normal archetypes before creating the hybrid archetypes.

 

[kennew142]

Responding to Greg's wishlist for 4e. I have moved some elements around to more easily respond to them. I hope I haven't ruined the context or changed the meaning.

3) add cultural/environmental skill packages. The player chooses a package (or DM assigns packages to cultures if homebrewing a setting) that are added to race and provide a few skill ranks, a feat, and proficiency in a weapon (or second feat), common to all members of the culture.

4) Occupations per d20 Modern, but for a fantasy setting

6) Weapon Groups from UA

I like these ideas, but I'm not sure that they are flaws in 3e that needed fixing.

5) Classes
- remove most class features like armor and starting weapons as automatic standard class features and give each class additional bonus feats for 1st level characters. Armor and weapons would be among the bonus feat choices for certain classes at first level.

and give bonus feats and talents choices for each class. A wizard choosing fighter as a new class could choose a weapon, an armor, or another combat feat rather than learnng all weapons and armor just by taking a level in the class

- every class gets minimum of 4 + int bonus skill points per level (x4 at first level)

I am hoping that these elements, already present in some books that are significant 4e previews, will be included in 4e.

- classes use the poor save progression with the class taken as a first level character providing a one time bonus (or bonuses)

I like the idea of all classes having good saves with bonuses coming only from the first class taken, or at least not stacking the bonuses above +2 to each defense.

5a) 6 generic classes
- Adept: choose intelligence (Arcane), wisdom (Divine, Spirit) or charisma (Innate, Psionics, Ki) for spellcasting. Ex. priests, psychics, shaman's sorcerer, wizards,

- Expert: ex. cat burglars, nobles, scholars, spies,

- Warrior: barbarian warriors, duelists, gladiators, soldiers

- Martial Adept: blends aspects of Warrior and Adept with bard spell progression. choose intelligence (Arcane), wisdom (Divine) or charisma (Inate) for spellcasting: Ex. Battle sorcerers, Paladins, Rangers

- Physical Adept: blends aspects of Expert and Adept with bard spell progression. choose intelligence (Arcane), wisdom (Divine) or charisma (Inate) for spellcasting: Ex, bards, monks, niinja

- ? : Blends Martial and Expert role: ex. swashbucklers, martial rogues

I really dislike the idea of generic classes. It is the main reason I don't play D20 Modern.

Introduce new classes
Martial Artist: non-mystical unarmed fighter
Monk Priest: as the OA shaman, with variants for arcane and divine
Shaman: done as green Ronin's Shaman class
Witch: done as green ronin's witch class

I like the idea of a martial artist class (non-mystical), but I can't say that any of your other suggestions do it for me.

7) Action Points

12) Magic Item creation
- new rules get rid of experience point expenditure

I believe these have already been confirmed. I am in favor them as well.

b) replace Improved Unarmed Strike with the brawl, combat ma, and defensive ma trees from d20 Modern

This is the second reason I don't play D20 modern. I much prefer the Superior Unarmed Strike from Bo9S.

10) Combat
- class based defense bonus
- armor as dr
- Book of Iron Might style rules for combat maneuvers

I believe that we're getting level based defense bonuses. This is assuming that AC is one of the defenses that gets +1/2 levels. I definitely don't want armor as DR (I've played too much GURPS and Runequest to think this is a good idea). I like the Bo9S rules for maneuvers better (although I believe they will be called martial powers in 4e).

- hit points: Either
a) Remove them and replace with True20 Toughness Save ; or

b) keep hit points with the following
- 10+ con bonus hit points at first level and less hit points gained at each level (class based defense would reduce getting hit and dr from armor would reduce damage taken

I'm hoping neither of these options make it into the 4e rules. The lack of hit points is my biggest beef with True 20. The second option makes for weak characters unless armor provides DR, which I also dislike.

- penalties when at 50% and 25% of hit points remaining hit points

- death and dying rules (UA): no more negative hit points. At O hit points start making saves to avoid falling unconcious, dying stabilize and death.

These rules both sound good.

11) Magic
Divine Magic: I think spell levels per times a day good for prayers answered by the gods. So the only change I would want are:
- Spontaneous Divine Casting (UA):
- rework domain spell lists to incorporate new spellls that better fit the domains

- Arcane casting: I dislikethe current system. My choices:
a) Elements of Magic rME (for arcane) and Green Ronin's Psychic Handbook (or Psionics)
b) Spell points with vitalizing (UA) for arcane

I have to say that I am much more in favor of the at will, per encounter and per day system that has been hinted at in various previews, with rituals rounding out the other types of spells.

 

[Voss]

I am one of those players and GMs who likes a large number of base classes. It makes it much easier to find a class that does exactly what you want it to do. There are some classes we never used in 3.5 (e.g. hexblade, warmage, shugenja, wu jen, samurai), some we wanted to, but never had a chance (e.g. beguiler, favored soul) and others that we made much use of (e.g. duskblade, warlock).

I agree. I'd rather have a huge number of classes with an actual schtick, rather than a small number of classes that can do *everything*. Wizards, druids, clerics (and a lesser extent, rogues) can solve any problem in the game with adequate preparation. Everybody else gets the shaft.



@Insight- power creep wasn't really the issue with 3rd edition. CoDzilla was broken out of the box, and a lot later stuff (samurai, knight, dragon shaman, etc) was complete garbage. What was a problem was the random nature of what was powerful and what wasn't, what looked like a complete lack of playtesting for later stuff, and designers with conflicting ideas of how things work and what things actually did.

 

[Set]

2) Races: remove the non-biological functions

3) add cultural/environmental skill packages. The player chooses a package (or DM assigns packages to cultures if homebrewing a setting) that are added to race and provide a few skill ranks, a feat, and proficiency in a weapon (or second feat), common to all members of the culture.

Total agreement here. Not every elf is going to be all longsword, rapier and bow. Some are gonna go with spears. Some are gonna go with Aerenal Scimitars. Some are gonna go with elven 'katana.' Some are gonna scorn armed combat entirely and be Monks who fight only with the weapons nature gave them.

5) Classes
- remove most class features like armor and starting weapons as automatic standard class features and give each class additional bonus feats for 1st level characters. Armor and weapons would be among the bonus feat choices for certain classes at first level.

Yup. And if that Fighter doesn't want heavy or medium armor proficiency or shield proficiency, he can pick up something that makes him more effective without all of that heavy stuff, as befits his swashbucklery concept.

- every class gets minimum of 4 + int bonus skill points per level (x4 at first level)

Definitely. 2 skill pts. per level, often combined with Half Orcs who lose half of that due to their crappy Intelligence, is just a royal pain in the butt. *Animals* have higher ranks in skills than most Fighters!

As for your thoughts on classes, I'm partial to less core classes, but all of those core classes being *widely* variable. The 'Fighter' class would be able to pick up the Feats necessary to be a Barbarian, Ranger, Paladin, Monk, Swashbuckler, Samurai, etc.

And all PrCs would be scrapped in favor of Feats. If Gonzo the Ubermage wants Spell Power, he can just pick it up as a Feat at the appropriate level, he doesn't need X levels of Archmage, or to become a Red Wizard of Thay.

Cleric:
- lower hit die to d6
- leather armor only
- more skill points
- divine grace as per paladin
- turn rebuke as paladin (unless received as a domain ability)
- bonus divine feats or abilities based on domains every 5 levels
- spontaneous divine casting
- smaller spell lists based on deity's domains + spells for the following: augury/communing, blessing the faithful, cursing/punishing heretics and enemies (e.g., bestow curse, mark of justice) and planar ally (specific creatures associated with the deity),
- lower spell power at higher levels with non-spellcasters
- class variants: cloistered cleric (UA), martial cleric (better hit die and armor)

I'd ditch Cleric spells entirely and replace them with bonus feats that allow him to use his channeling powers in different ways (to heal, to smite, to buff, to summon servants of his god, etc). Add to that a bunch more uses of 'turn/rebuke' per day, and it's a shiny new class that doesn't 'cast spells' so much as 'channel their faith.'

The Cleric could even come in two flavors, the 'cloistered' cleric who has lots of 'channeling' attempts per day, but light armor and simple weapons, and the 'battle cleric,' who has less channeling attempts per day, heavy armor, more hit points and a favored weapon.

6) Weapon Groups from UA
7) Action Points
8) Skills
- Expanded Uses for skills collected from Complete Adventurer and Races of the Wild
9) Feats
a) Make core the following
- weapon style feats
- divine feats (excluding divine metamagic)

Yes to all. A better system for skills in particular. Skill Tricks might simply be folded into higher ranked uses of skills that have prerequisites (if you have 5 ranks of X and 2 ranks of Y, you can do this. Doesn't matter if you have a +25 to the check because of some spell or racial ability, you gotta actually pay to play).

Skills should be more than an afterthought, IMO, but a valid tool, making a 'skill-monkey' character such as a Rogue a valid concept without having to give them yet another role as 'damage dealer / sneak attacker' to make up for the paucity of the skill system.

10) Combat
- class based defense bonus
- armor as dr
- Book of Iron Might style rules for combat maneuvers
- hit points: Either

a) Remove them and replace with True20 Toughness Save ; or

b) keep hit points with the following
- 10+ con bonus hit points at first level and less hit points gained at each level (class based defense would reduce getting hit and dr from armor would reduce damage taken

- penalties when at 50% and 25% of hit points remaining hit points

- death and dying rules (UA): no more negative hit points. At O hit points start making saves to avoid falling unconcious, dying stabilize and death.

Either system sounds interesting, but I haven't played around with them enough to know how changing these things affect the game. (I do use the Toughness Save mechanic a lot in Mutants & Masterminds, and it can get kinda all-or-nothing at times, which is cool for superhero play, but I'm not sure would play so well in a fantasy style game. Perhaps 2d10 instead of 1d20 would 'curve' the line a bit?)

- Arcane casting: I dislikethe current system. My choices:
a) Elements of Magic rME (for arcane) and Green Ronin's Psychic Handbook (or Psionics)
b) Spell points with vitalizing (UA) for arcane

Psychic's Handbook style 'psionics' appeals to me a lot more than WotC Psionics, that's for sure. I think this would be an impossible sell, 'though. Psionics are pretty darn popular as is, for a niche product.

I do really have to get my hands on Elements of Magic, Revised. I've heard a lot of good stuff about it.

12) Magic Item creation
- new rules get rid of experience point expenditure

Hell yes. The character already has to blow a precious feat and a crapload of money on the process, the exp thing is just injury on top of insult.

Based on your list, I suggest that you might also want to do something about Metamagic Feats. They seem like the sort of thing that don't go as well with the view of the game you are promoting.

 

[Rechan]

Great topic!

I disagree with the OP - I love the new classes. It would really make me a sad panda if they just left 8. True20's method would have annoyed me more than anything.

As to the actual question:

They should take out elves, dwarves, and halfl- ooh, you mean things that they should do that some might agree with? Hmm.

1) Rename the Fighter. We don't call the Rogue "Backstabber" or the Wizard "Blow-things-upper". The Thief of 2e became the Rogue, the Magic User became the Wizard. I don't see why the Fighter can't become the Warrior or something a little less meh. While we're at it, rename the Barbarian the Berzerker, or something that doesn't equate to culture.

2) Death to Alignment. Want your game to be about Good and Evil? Great. But I don't believe that should be reflected in mechanics.

3) Clerics should be more customizable to fit their god than just some piddly domains. Specialty priests should be the default, with more customizable skill lists and abilities. And not every Cleric should get Turn Undead because not every God gives a damn about undead.

4) Polearms should be a real option.

5) Swordmage should be in the PHB.

6) Make psionics core. Hey, I gotta have at least one selfish one in here.

7) Go with Wound/Vitality points, rather than straight HP. AT least, Hp I feel is clunky with that whole "It's your body + luck".

8) None of this "1 culture = Demi-human race". I really dislike that Dwarves = Bearded Scots and Elves = Hippies, unless you're looking at a subrace.

 

[Jayouzts]

Classes

Market pressures demand the printing of new classes (and spells, magic items, feats, monsters, etc) so we're never going to get away from that. But it seems 4e is doing a good job of taking the current classes apart and rebuilding them so they work. The prime example is the reduced power of the wizard.

I realize WOTC is going to print what sells, and I do not begrudge them that. But not all classes have a place in all campaigns, and I think this gets lost. I have no problem with a ninja class in a campaign based on Feudal Japan, but in most campaigns it would strain my ability to suspend disbelief to see a half-orc ninja running around.

If they can drive that point home in the DMG it would a step in the right direction.

 

[Mercule]

2) Races: remove the non-biological functions

3) add cultural/environmental skill packages. The player chooses a package (or DM assigns packages to cultures if homebrewing a setting) that are added to race and provide a few skill ranks, a feat, and proficiency in a weapon (or second feat), common to all members of the culture.

I'd go for that. On the other hand, I've never really had a problem getting a DM to tweak the package.

5) Classes
and give bonus feats and talents choices for each class. A wizard choosing fighter as a new class could choose a weapon, an armor, or another combat feat rather than learnng all weapons and armor just by taking a level in the class

I believe "dipping" was one of the things they looked at, specifically, with the revised multi-classing.

- classes use the poor save progression with the class taken as a first level character providing a one time bonus (or bonuses)

Current indications are for a unified progression for BAB, saves, etc. with a class bonus of some sort.

every class gets minimum of 4 + int bonus skill points per level (x4 at first level)

I wouldn't be at all surprised. The warblade (aka: 4E fighter prototype) had 4 skills. The skill system is changing a bit, but I'd put money on the "less skilled" classes no longer being effectively "unskilled".

- as for the classes themselves, either one of the following:

I'd prefer not to go generic classes, but more customization would be great. There's no reason the fighter shouldn't make a serviceable swashbuckler. Actually, it sounds like the rogue or ranger will fill that niche, which might work okay, but I'm not to sure.

6) Weapon Groups from UA

I've inferred (read: pulled out of my sphincter) from the tidbits on martial powers that there are groupings of weapons in 4E. Whether that applies to proficiency, I can't say, but we can hope.

7) Action Points

Stated as core for 4E.

8) Skills
- Expanded Uses for skills collected from Complete Adventurer and Races of the Wild

Some skills are getting rolled together, so you might see some expanded uses there. On the other hand, it's also been said that some skill abilities (tumble to avoid AoO) have been made into feats, so you might see a bleed of skill tricks into feats.

9) Feats
a) Make core the following
- weapon style feats

Martial powers.

- divine feats (excluding divine metamagic)

It sounds like clerical magic will actually work differently than wizard magic. Divine feats may end up being represented by cleric powers. That will also allow a better breakdown of things that should be at will, per encounter, per day, and ritual.

c) remove natural spell

I suspect that the will/encounter/daily/ritual breakdown will eliminate most of the need for such a feat.

10) Combat
- class based defense bonus

I'm pretty sure something like this is in.

- Book of Iron Might style rules for combat maneuvers

Well, they won't be from BoIM, but fighters (and others) will have a lengthy list of martial maneuvers. That's been one of the big talking points on 4E. We'll just have to wait and see if 4E does it better, worse, or on par. I assume Mr. Mearls has learned something between then and now.

- hit points: Either
b) keep hit points with the following
- 10+ con bonus hit points at first level and less hit points gained at each level (class based defense would reduce getting hit and dr from armor would reduce damage taken

- penalties when at 50% and 25% of hit points remaining hit points

- death and dying rules (UA): no more negative hit points. At O hit points start making saves to avoid falling unconcious, dying stabilize and death.

I doubt we'll see penalties, but I'm almost positive triple hp at first level has been confirmed. Also, I seem to remember a small blurb on revised dying rules (no details).

12) Magic Item creation
- new rules get rid of experience point expenditure

Done. It was emphasized, bolded, and shouted from a mountaintop.

 

[Mercule]

My personal peeve is with rangers. There hasn't been much info, yet, so I'll hold condemnation. I still don't like the trend over the last couple of decades, though.

If I could make one decree for 4E, it would be that rangers get a boost to hp. Make them some who fits the mold of sleeping under the stars and lying in wait for days during an ice storm. If that'd make them too potent, ditch the spells.

Actually, ditch the spells, anyway. Make up the entirety of the power balance difference with "tough as nails" class features.

Oh, and don't marry them to the bow, either. That's a great build for the ranger, but a sword, axe, or spear wielding build should be just as reasonable.

 

[Fifth Element]

No idea how this will be handled in 4E, but what I would like to see changed is the mutitudinous ways in which spells are determined if they take effect. Some have no effect on creatures with a certain number of Hit Dice, some have no effect on creatures with a certain number of hit points, some are subject to Spell Resistance, etc. I'd like a little more consistency in the spell design.