What comes first - character building

[d4]

If I were to generalize, I would say that more of your old school players prefer rolling dice...and more of the newer players prefer point buy. Obviously that is a generalization, but I think it would hold true.

i agree that that generalization is normally the case. i'm the case in opposition, however.

i started playing D&D in 1982, so i would definitely consider myself "old school." however, i'm hardly the typical D&D player -- i stopped playing D&D around '85-'86, abandoning it for other systems such as HERO which used point-buy concepts instead of random character generation. i didn't come back to D&D until 3e in 2000.

as you say, though, it's all a matter of taste.

 

[Altalazar]

I'm exclusively a point-buy person now - but even when I did dice, I still thought up the character concept first and fleshed that out in my mind long before any dice hit the table.

For me, the character concept is everything - the stats are just a way to "translate" it into the game mechanics.

 

[takyris]

If I were to generalize, I would say that more of your old school players prefer rolling dice...and more of the newer players prefer point buy. Obviously that is a generalization, but I think it would hold true.

It might for some, but I've been playing since the fifth grade, and I'm 27, now.

I want the dice to control individual attempts at things, individual actions. I like that level of randomness. I don't want randomness when determining things that are going to affect my character forever. I also don't want to have a permanent advantage or disadvantage when compared to another person of my own level. If we're all 4th level, and I've got four 17's and two 15's and the other guy has four 13's and two 10's, I'm getting a permament +2 on all my rolls, relative to him. Beating him by lucky rolls individually is fine with me, but beating him on something that permanent? No, thank you. By the same token, I'm going to feel cheated if the other player has a total modifier of +18 from the sum of his ability score mods, and I've got a +4. I don't mind rolling lower than the other guy, but having a permanent penalty is lame -- and being the same level, the same class, and choosing the same feats but having a lower chance of success is a penalty.

This all gets down to the fact that -- for me -- the dice are what you use when playing the game, and character creation is not part of the game. One player should not end up with a permanent advantage or disadvantage because of the way that he rolled, relative to other players in the group.

I'm probably more extreme than most -- I even prefer to have standardized hit points per level, so that someone can take Toughness to genuinely get MORE hit points, not to make up for a lousy roll.

Cedric, since we're both old-schoolers, why don't you tell me why you hate Point Buy so much? I know that some people do, but the only reason I hear is that "It's old school" and it's "Going with the dice", which is all well and good, but has never flown with me. If you really want to go with the dice, roll d12 for your class (12 meaning multiclass), d8 for your race, and distribute your scores randomly without regard to minmaxing. If you do that, then you're "Letting the dice make the call". If you're not -- if you're making any choices whatsoever during character creation -- then you do like to have some element of control over your character. You are simply on a different point of the "Randomness -- > Choice" continuum than the Point-Buy folks are.

 

[Psion]

I put "concept first", but "hoping the dice will help" is overstating it. The way the human mind works is generally a bit vauger than the 3-18 scale; most concepts are well enough realized by the priority in which the stats are assigned. "18 stength" is not a character concept; "really strong" is. The way we put lower and upper limits on stats, if you can't realize what you want, you are expecting too much.

 

[WayneLigon]

You need the option: Both I've done both. I'll start with a class and generally some kind of concept but add details sometimes based on what the dice say. I just did an AU character for a campaign that starts soon. I knew what class I wanted, then rolled; put highest stat in my prime attribute (though this is not always the case with some characters), then started with the others. I had 11, 12, 14, 14, and 15 to put in.

Character is a Magister, so probably not going to be great with the physical stats. Since Magisters get no weapon familiarity, not even with Simple weapons save the staff, I put the 11 in Strength. I get to thinking about his previous life, and I have this Craft skill that's staring me in the face.. OK, crafts. Staff. Woodcarving. He carved his own first staff, so I put some points into Craft: Woodcarving. (Though Magister staves do not have to be wood, it sounds good for a beginner). So I made his dad a woodcarver and furniture maker. He's have been put to work early. So I put one of the 14's into Con; he's only a little above average strength (he's lost some muscle tone since he went from toting wood all day long to paging through books, but his duties to his master kept his endurance up) but he can work like a horse. The 12 went to Dex, the other 14 into Wisdom, then a 15 into Cha (since Intimidate is a class skill for him, and I want to buy Diplomacy later on; also, the various Charming spells rely on your Charisma check).

So, a little bit on the character-building process I'll go through sometimes.

 

[WayneLigon]

You need the option: Both I've done both. I'll start with a class and generally some kind of concept but add details sometimes based on what the dice say. I just did an AU character for a campaign that starts soon. I knew what class I wanted, then rolled; put highest stat in my prime attribute (though this is not always the case with some characters), then started with the others. I had 11, 12, 14, 14, and 15 to put in.

Character is a Magister, so probably not going to be great with the physical stats. Since Magisters get no weapon familiarity, not even with Simple weapons save the staff, I put the 11 in Strength. I get to thinking about his previous life, and I have this Craft skill that's staring me in the face.. OK, crafts. Staff. Woodcarving. He carved his own first staff, so I put some points into Craft: Woodcarving. (Though Magister staves do not have to be wood, it sounds good for a beginner). So I made his dad a woodcarver and furniture maker. He's have been put to work early. So I put one of the 14's into Con; he's only a little above average strength (he's lost some muscle tone since he went from toting wood all day long to paging through books, but his duties to his master kept his endurance up) but he can work like a horse. The 12 went to Dex, the other 14 into Wisdom, then a 15 into Cha (since Intimidate is a class skill for him, and I want to buy Diplomacy later on; also, the various Charming spells rely on your Charisma check).

So, a little bit on the character-building process I'll go through sometimes.

 

[WayneLigon]

You need the option: Both I've done both. I'll start with a class and generally some kind of concept but add details sometimes based on what the dice say. I just did an AU character for a campaign that starts soon. I knew what class I wanted, then rolled; put highest stat in my prime attribute (though this is not always the case with some characters), then started with the others. I had 11, 12, 14, 14, and 15 to put in.

Character is a Magister, so probably not going to be great with the physical stats. Since Magisters get no weapon familiarity, not even with Simple weapons save the staff, I put the 11 in Strength. I get to thinking about his previous life, and I have this Craft skill that's staring me in the face.. OK, crafts. Staff. Woodcarving. He carved his own first staff, so I put some points into Craft: Woodcarving. (Though Magister staves do not have to be wood, it sounds good for a beginner). So I made his dad a woodcarver and furniture maker. He's have been put to work early. So I put one of the 14's into Con; he's only a little above average strength (he's lost some muscle tone since he went from toting wood all day long to paging through books, but his duties to his master kept his endurance up) but he can work like a horse. The 12 went to Dex, the other 14 into Wisdom, then a 15 into Cha (since Intimidate is a class skill for him, and I want to buy Diplomacy later on; also, the various Charming spells rely on your Charisma check).

So, a little bit on the character-building process I'll go through sometimes.

 

[WayneLigon]

You need the option: Both I've done both. I'll start with a class and generally some kind of concept but add details sometimes based on what the dice say. I just did an AU character for a campaign that starts soon. I knew what class I wanted, then rolled; put highest stat in my prime attribute (though this is not always the case with some characters), then started with the others. I had 11, 12, 14, 14, and 15 to put in.

Character is a Magister, so probably not going to be great with the physical stats. Since Magisters get no weapon familiarity, not even with Simple weapons save the staff, I put the 11 in Strength. I get to thinking about his previous life, and I have this Craft skill that's staring me in the face.. OK, crafts. Staff. Woodcarving. He carved his own first staff, so I put some points into Craft: Woodcarving. (Though Magister staves do not have to be wood, it sounds good for a beginner). So I made his dad a woodcarver and furniture maker. He's have been put to work early. So I put one of the 14's into Con; he's only a little above average strength (he's lost some muscle tone since he went from toting wood all day long to paging through books, but his duties to his master kept his endurance up) but he can work like a horse. The 12 went to Dex, the other 14 into Wisdom, then a 15 into Cha (since Intimidate is a class skill for him, and I want to buy Diplomacy later on; also, the various Charming spells rely on your Charisma check).

So, a little bit on the character-building process I'll go through sometimes.

 

[Desdichado]

It might for some, but I've been playing since the fifth grade, and I'm 27, now.
[...]
I'm probably more extreme than most -- I even prefer to have standardized hit points per level, so that someone can take Toughness to genuinely get MORE hit points, not to make up for a lousy roll.

Taky, I agree with you completely even on the point of non-random HP progression (although that does seem to take some of the fun out of the system, I'll admit.) I'm also pretty old school, having started in 5th grade and I'm now about to turn 32. I don't know if that supposed correlation between oldskoolers and die rollers is real either, for that matter. I'm tempted to think that it's not.