D&D General What Constitutes "Old School" D&D

[Vaalingrade]

Mary Sue means a character who is always right to the point that the universe contrives to make them right, not a character with established history and personality when the DM is demanding blank slates to mold under their authorship.

 

[UngainlyTitan]

This is the main reason I cringe away from storygames and story-focused play. Literally every single time I've engaged with that style it's nothing but a group of people trying to convince each other just how utterly spectacularly awesome and perfect their character is. First level characters with zero XP and epic backstories try to out do Lord of the Rings. It's Mary Sue's all the way down. Make a character. Here's a random assortment of stats and hit points. If that one dies, roll a new one. It's not special. It's a fictional construct to play a game. Get on with it already.

Sturgeon's law applies to everything, I have actually seen some very entertaining self insertion fanfiction and I agree it can get silly but D&D suffers less of it then fanfiction, you have to make fun for everyone at the table. It does not have to be all grim survival all the time to be interesting there are many way of doing things.

CR is particularly well done in my opinion. I would have no hesitation in joining a game a tenth as good.

 

[Greg Benage]

I used to listen to the oldies station for change of pace about 20 years ago. Dont listen often at all now. Was up north at the cabin and tuned in to hear that "We Built This City" by Jeffersen Starship is now considered an oldie...

We Built This S#!tty: An Oral History of the Worst Song of All Time

Turns out even the people who made it kinda hate it, too.

www.gq.com

 

[Micah Sweet]

This is the main reason I cringe away from storygames and story-focused play. Literally every single time I've engaged with that style it's nothing but a group of people trying to convince each other just how utterly spectacularly awesome and perfect their character is. First level characters with zero XP and epic backstories try to out do Lord of the Rings. It's Mary Sues all the way down. Make a character. Here's a random assortment of stats and hit points. If that one dies, roll a new one. It's not special. It's a fictional construct to play a game. Get on with it already.

That is how I feel about pretty much all my characters, coupled with wanting to try out new mechanical and non-mechanical concepts. A lot of folks, however, do tend to get more attached than that, and that's ok.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Sturgeon's law applies to everything, I have actually seen some very entertaining self insertion fanfiction and I agree it can get silly but D&D suffers less of it then fanfiction, you have to make fun for everyone at the table. It does not have to be all grim survival all the time to be interesting there are many way of doing things.

CR is particularly well done in my opinion. I would have no hesitation in joining a game a tenth as good.

I wouldn't say this is a question of tone. You can have light-hearted games full of unrealistic Mary Sues.

 

[tetrasodium]

3.x and earlier for me. Discounting one game in the early 80s when I was too little they it I came in during the 2e/3.x switchover when a local bookstore started stocking the books

 

[UngainlyTitan]

I wouldn't say this is a question of tone. You can have light-hearted games full of unrealistic Mary Sues.

I would agree, the principal thing about a ttrpg; is everyone at the table having fun. Then go for it, it really does not matter to everyone else. Though I do think that if the opportunity to try something new crops to go for it. It might also be fun.

 

[Shardstone]

Man, listen.

If you played before 3rd edition, you're old school. I know that those from the ancient days yon' before that say that they are the real old school, not many more decades can pass before playing before 3rd edition is just straight up old school.

And, the game before 3rd edition was completely different. There are whole new paradigms in play with WotC D&D and beyond that have completely changed what TTRPG of today are, amped up by the lineages of Vampire, PbtA, etc etc. People who played OD&D have a lot more of a similar experience to AD&D, then someone who has played OD&D vs 3 or 4E.

Everyone's going to have their own different definitions of this, I mean, pre-2000 vs post-2000, these are two different worlds the more time that passes

 

[Oofta]

Man, listen.

If you played before 3rd edition, you're old school. I know that those from the ancient days yon' before that say that they are the real old school, not many more decades can pass before playing before 3rd edition is just straight up old school.

And, the game before 3rd edition was completely different. There are whole new paradigms in play with WotC D&D and beyond that have completely changed what TTRPG of today are, amped up by the lineages of Vampire, PbtA, etc etc. People who played OD&D have a lot more of a similar experience to AD&D, then someone who has played OD&D vs 3 or 4E.

Everyone's going to have their own different definitions of this, I mean, pre-2000 vs post-2000, these are two different worlds the more time that passes

Yeah, the late 20th century was a different time, man.

 

[overgeeked]

Sturgeon's law applies to everything, I have actually seen some very entertaining self insertion fanfiction and I agree it can get silly but D&D suffers less of it then fanfiction, you have to make fun for everyone at the table. It does not have to be all grim survival all the time to be interesting there are many way of doing things.

CR is particularly well done in my opinion. I would have no hesitation in joining a game a tenth as good.

But CR isn't Mary Sue self-insert "I'm so awesome" story-gaming. It's story-focused play...with a group of professional storytellers who understand drama, story structure, dramatic twists, character flaws, etc. That's the difference. Most gamers wouldn't recognize story structure if it smacked them in the face. That's one of the reasons why I won't bother with story-gaming. If you have any understanding of story and drama at all, you're not going to self-insert a Mary Sue. You're not going to make a perfectly invulnerable and uncaring character. And yet, that's exactly what the vast majority of gamers do. There are entire forums and communities and channels dedicated to exactly that.

That is how I feel about pretty much all my characters, coupled with wanting to try out new mechanical and non-mechanical concepts. A lot of folks, however, do tend to get more attached than that, and that's ok.

Definitely. It's just not for me.

I would agree, the principal thing about a ttrpg; is everyone at the table having fun. Then go for it, it really does not matter to everyone else. Though I do think that if the opportunity to try something new crops to go for it. It might also be fun.

Yeah, absolutely. I just don't have fun with Mary Sue filled, story-focused games. If that's what some people like, have fun. I'll play with other people though.