What could 4E learn from Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay?

When you get back, tell me - how do you think that 4E could've been "rethunk" with this kind of background?

I have absolutely no desire to play Warhammer 3e, where 2e is one of my favourite games. The more I learn about the new edition, the less I like it.

Obviously, I therefore think there are no mechanical lessons D&D 4e should have learned, except perhaps "how not to do it".

That said...

I have become convinced that the D&D 'core' is just too big and too complex. This was true in 3e and 3.5e. It is true in 4e, and it is true in Pathfinder. The core rules now run to 800+ pages of books, often of very dense text and very complex rules. And, in order to play, someone has to be familiar with the vast bulk of that material.

(Alternately, there's the possibility of a starter set. Unfortunately, all too often, these make use of a "dumbed down" subset of the rules and rely very heavily on the use of pregenerated characters. Worse still, when the party 'graduate' to the real rules, the starter set pretty much loses all value. This means that if you don't like the game, you've wasted the money you spent on the starter set. If you do like the game, you've wasted the money you spend on the starter set.)

So, where I do think D&D could learn some lessons from WFRP (and also Warhammer Fantasy Battles and Warhammer 40,000) is in the form of a deluxe starter set.

Me personally I see a "Core Set" with the 3 rulebooks, character sheets, premade dice, power cards for all powers in the Core Books, standup character "models" and a number of monsters in standups. Oh, and "markers" for curses and quarries and marks. And perhaps even numbered "tag-markers" that you put when there are ongoing effects to remember them?

My set would start with a Core Rulebook (a single book replacing the current PHB/DMG/MM trio). This should be in full colour, be about 250 pages long, and include as much as will fit. This probably means restricting the core set down to four races (Human, Elf, Dwarf, Halfling), four classes (Cleric, Fighter, Rogue, Wizard), and the first tier (my ideal version uses the tiers from BECM D&D, so would actually be the Basic and Expert tiers at levels 1-14. But, for the 4e version, that would mean levels 1-10). The other major rules change I advocate is to reduce the number of choices required to create a first level character - the choice of feat, or maybe even of powers could be deferred to second (or subsequent) levels.

Then, you add a set of Quickstart rules, a booklet of adventure material, and various other things to get people playing right away.

And then you add to that the usual raft of dungeon tiles, spell effect templates, condition markers, miniature figures, character sheets, and so on.

Two key differences between this set and any recent Starter Set/Basic Game: Firstly, the Core Rulebook supplied with this boxed set is the same Core Rulebook that everyone else uses. (It should be available for sale separately. Anything that's missing from that rulebook, such as the remaining races, classes and levels, should be covered in supplements.) This means that the rules used in the starter set are exactly the same rules as used in the real game. It also means that the vast majority of the starter game components retain their value once you graduate.

The other difference is that the starter set would emphasise players creating their own custom character at the outset. The box probably should include pregen characters, for those who are desperate to play right away, but there should definitely be encouragement to 'take the plunge' and create a new character as soon as possible.

One more, possibly important, point about starter boxed sets, price points, and so forth. In the UK, RPG rulebooks are classified as "books" by our customs and excise people. Boxed sets are classified as "games". Books are not liable for VAT, while games are, which immediately increases the price by 17.5% tax (currently 15%, but that's about to be going up). That's one of the reasons I insist that the Core Rulebook should be available separately (the other being that 'expert' players probably won't want to buy in to yet another starter set - they'll probably just want to get the updated rules).
 

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Really impressed by the new Warhammer. Then I spied the pricetag. I'll still consider picking up a copy if I could get it for £50 or less though.

@delericho

Great idea. Seems what you are wanting differentiated between is Basic Dungeons & Dragons and Advanced Dungeons & Dragons. Personally I think thats a very good idea, there is a lot of information to process. In fact I wonder if WotC would consider such a book by Tiers mimicking the old D&D boxed sets.

Basic = Heroic Tier Handbook
Expert = Paragon Tier Handbook
Companion = Epic Tier Handbook

However, instead of rulechanging (you suggested delaying feat choice for simplicity) all you would need to do is add some pregen character sheets...and when there are only 4 races and 4 classes thats only sixteen character sheets to accomodate the basic possibilities.
 

Oh I can't wait till the price drops on this baby, I'm buying it. I'd buy second edition but it's too expensive...

They're both good though. This reminds me of Warhammer Quest, an excellent little game.

Back to the original question though, one thing I hope that WotC learns is strong vibrant settings. Maybe they'll get it right with Dark Sun but Forgotten Realms and Ebberon doesn't make me want to play a character in it.

I also love the stances and party stuff. I might incorporate that into DnD.. or simply switch the players to Warhammer.
 

One of the "problems" with WHFRP 3e is that their innovative dice mechanic is in fact very similar to the ones used in the World of Warcraft board game, as well as the Descent board game. I mean, 4e caught some flak for looking like a board game, but Warhammer wants to take it up a notch.

There is only one thing I can think of that 4e can learn: better flavor. The art of 4e is not bad per se, but certainly not of the same quality as Warhammer's. And the quotes they put in with paragon paths and powers... ugh.
 

Oh I can't wait till the price drops on this baby, I'm buying it. I'd buy second edition but it's too expensive...

They're both good though. This reminds me of Warhammer Quest, an excellent little game.

Back to the original question though, one thing I hope that WotC learns is strong vibrant settings. Maybe they'll get it right with Dark Sun but Forgotten Realms and Ebberon doesn't make me want to play a character in it.

I also love the stances and party stuff. I might incorporate that into DnD.. or simply switch the players to Warhammer.
The stances are an interesting aspect, the party stuff even more so.

Rules about guilds, clans, academies are interesting, another is the relationship between the player characters. All that helps to highlight the story role of the player characters, their place in the world.
 


On a positive note: I picked up the 4e Starter Set for the counters and dungeon tiles. I'd buy more counters if WotC produced them, they're a cheap / easy (easier storage / transport) alternative to minis, although I still love having my minis! I'm not personally too keen on the WotC power cards, I feel I can do better / more useful custom ones. Something like special card-protectors / backing (I use spare Magic cards right now) might be cool, but would have to be cheap enough to be an impulse purchase. Stand-up cardboard counters for PCs would be an interesting concept, but I think I'd only be interested if there was a way to customize them for individual characters... Something like a program to quickly slap together a "paper doll" and stick the right gear / accessories on it would be cool possibility. I'd personally be more likely to buy stuff sold in smaller "bits", rather than a single large box.

I mean, the option still remains to buy PDFs for those who prefer it that way. I'm a little confused at the people who seem to think I meant this discussion as exclusive, while it is in fact inclusive.
There is no option to buy WotC .pdfs at the moment. And I don't expect there to be a less expensive entry option for WHFRP (but maybe I should expect one?). I view this discussion as exclusive because that's how I view the products we're discussing...

[sblock]I have spent way over $100 on just 4e books I've actually picked up so far, but personally I feel that I've gotten a lot better value out of the hardbound books than I would out of a flashy box. And don't get me wrong, I'd like to be able to grab WHFRP3 (and every D&D book that comes out), but it just isn't worth putting aside all other gaming purchases for 2+ months. That's just IMO / my situation: I'd like to be getting even more value, say with some slickly-produced black & white softcovers. I don't need full-color hardbacks for everything, and something a bit lighter would be less of a pain in my neck (/ back).

So, I know (or think, at least) that you want to talk about what's cool about WHFRP3... Unfortunately I haven't seen anything I think is particularly cool yet. Now the rules & setting may or may not be awesome, but I'd have to read a copy to make a real judgment (and certainly the WHFRP setting is awesome, but what will they do with it in this box?). The components don't seem anything special compared to the higher-end board games.[/sblock]
 

Great idea. Seems what you are wanting differentiated between is Basic Dungeons & Dragons and Advanced Dungeons & Dragons. Personally I think thats a very good idea, there is a lot of information to process. In fact I wonder if WotC would consider such a book by Tiers mimicking the old D&D boxed sets.

Basic = Heroic Tier Handbook
Expert = Paragon Tier Handbook
Companion = Epic Tier Handbook

However, instead of rulechanging (you suggested delaying feat choice for simplicity) all you would need to do is add some pregen character sheets...and when there are only 4 races and 4 classes thats only sixteen character sheets to accomodate the basic possibilities.

This is how I wish 4E had been released. It would allow people who really only enjoy heroic tier play a complete game to level 10. A year and a half after release I still have not read every page of the 4E PHB. The dreaded wall of text detailing powers level 1-30 for each class is too much to slog through.
An additional benefit would be that designers could see how the basics of gameplay work before putting so much time into higher tier balancing. Since general release seems to be the new model of open playtest, getting feedback from the public on the first release could save later releases from so many mistakes.

What delericho mentioned about starter material staying relevant is a very good point. The old Basic D&D set was such a great value because it provided both a low barrier to entry and retained its value as a core rulebook afterwards. Getting to try out the actual full version of a game with a smaller buy in is a big win for the consumer. If the product is solid it can be a big winner for the company too.
 

I am not sure how many lessons can be learned at this point we didn't know already. I think a lot can only be learned actually playing the game and seeing the rules in action. (And maybe looking at sales ;) )

What WotC might be able to learn:
- How to create a "tactical" game without requiring miniatures and battle maps. (Whether that's a lesson they want to learn is another matter.)
- Different approaches on how to visualize the game mechanics and making it easier to understand. (4E has power cards and miniature)
- How to build more "story" into your game mechanics (I am thinking of the party-conflict system mentioned in the previews)

Generally, I think D&D 4E and Warhammer 3E might have similar design goals - like accessibility, focusing on the gameplay experience at the table and away from it.
 

One thing that sounds interesting and could be applied to D&D is the party power thing, where a character that knows a power can share it with other character in the party.
I kind of like this and that it allows mentor type relationships in the party. Not sure how to make it fit in the D&D class system as it could break niche protection.
I would have to see it in play also I suppose.
 

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