What could 4E learn from Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay?

[rkwoodard]

Dragon Age

Really impressed by the new Warhammer. Then I spied the pricetag. I'll still consider picking up a copy if I could get it for £50 or less though.

@delericho

Great idea. Seems what you are wanting differentiated between is Basic Dungeons & Dragons and Advanced Dungeons & Dragons. Personally I think thats a very good idea, there is a lot of information to process. In fact I wonder if WotC would consider such a book by Tiers mimicking the old D&D boxed sets.

Basic = Heroic Tier Handbook
Expert = Paragon Tier Handbook
Companion = Epic Tier Handbook

However, instead of rulechanging (you suggested delaying feat choice for simplicity) all you would need to do is add some pregen character sheets...and when there are only 4 races and 4 classes thats only sixteen character sheets to accomodate the basic possibilities.

This is why I am looking forward to Dragon Age by Green Ronin. I have no interest in Video Games, but a new RPG written to be a introductory game is my cup of tea. Then they go and split it up in distinct box sets based on levels (1-5, 6-10 etc). And each box is the complete game for those levels.

I am totally on board with this set up.

RK

 

[Holy Bovine]

This is how I wish 4E had been released. It would allow people who really only enjoy heroic tier play a complete game to level 10. A year and a half after release I still have not read every page of the 4E PHB. The dreaded wall of text detailing powers level 1-30 for each class is too much to slog through.
An additional benefit would be that designers could see how the basics of gameplay work before putting so much time into higher tier balancing. Since general release seems to be the new model of open playtest, getting feedback from the public on the first release could save later releases from so many mistakes.

What delericho mentioned about starter material staying relevant is a very good point. The old Basic D&D set was such a great value because it provided both a low barrier to entry and retained its value as a core rulebook afterwards. Getting to try out the actual full version of a game with a smaller buy in is a big win for the consumer. If the product is solid it can be a big winner for the company too.

The more I think about this idea the more I love it. Damned shame WotC didn't think of it before hand. Imagine 3 Monster Manuals each with creatures usable only in 1 tier of play! The DMG would probably remain a single book though as the advice articles it provided are applicable to every level of play. Of course there would be the inevitable cries of 'money grab' as somehow people are "forced" to buy every book. Myself I would probably still only have the Heroic Tier books as none of my games are all that close to Paragon.

 

[Upper_Krust]

This is how I wish 4E had been released. It would allow people who really only enjoy heroic tier play a complete game to level 10. A year and a half after release I still have not read every page of the 4E PHB. The dreaded wall of text detailing powers level 1-30 for each class is too much to slog through.

It is a slog.

This idea is a no brainer for me and given it should be a relatively inexpensive exercise for WotC (all they have to do is recompile the relevant pages for each tier), I really wonder if they would consider it. Delericho's idea is pure gold.

I mean I am no evil corporate genius but on top of updating all the errata they could even add some new stuff and thereby these books would become the 4.5E without actually making the core books redundant.

Fans get what they want, WotC get more money. Its a win-win situation here.

Unfortunately the Rouse is no longer available so who the heck do we talk to about it?

An additional benefit would be that designers could see how the basics of gameplay work before putting so much time into higher tier balancing. Since general release seems to be the new model of open playtest, getting feedback from the public on the first release could save later releases from so many mistakes.

Totally agree. What I really like though is the idea that you could concentrate on giving each Tier its own distinct 'feel'. Not just mechanically, but with regards the art (heck even the layout) too.

 

[Upper_Krust]

One thing that sounds interesting and could be applied to D&D is the party power thing, where a character that knows a power can share it with other character in the party.
I kind of like this and that it allows mentor type relationships in the party. Not sure how to make it fit in the D&D class system as it could break niche protection.
I would have to see it in play also I suppose.

That was a very unique feature, I wonder if something along those lines could be adopted by D&D, sort of like a Paragon Path, but for everyone in the group.

Will be interesting to see how those mechanics operate.

 

[lutecius]

WOTC could have learned how to alien 75% of their customers instead of the mere 40% they settled for.

my thoughts exactly.

I think 4e and wfrp3 also have a lot in common in their design philosophy. FFG certainly went one step further with the expansion approach.

As I said in another thread, it's a good deterrent to piracy (few people are going to print and paste all those cards) but WotC should wait to see how wfrp3 does before going this route. I believe the electronic subscription model is a safer bet.

I spent about the same amount of money on the three core books as this costs. And for the same amount of money, if I would've gotten pre-printed, beautiful power cards, and character sheets, and standups for both monsters and characters and a box to keep it in? It would've been awesome.

I mean, the option still remains to buy PDFs for those who prefer it that way. I'm a little confused at the people who seem to think I meant this discussion as exclusive, while it is in fact inclusive.

The thing with wrp3 is that you need the special dice and props to play. Your options and the number of players are effectively limited by the number of shiny action cards.
For comparison, there are at least 4 times as many powers in phb1 alone. And many felt the game was incomplete. A 4e starter set would require a bigger (more expensive) box.

Interestingly, the designers' defense against the many complaints on the FFG site about action cards being too limiting is awfully similar to 4e's "oh, you also have those almost free-form skill-challenges and those cool p42 stunts (wfrp has a special card for them) so you can still make up stuff, good luck to dms balancing that. Be sure to buy the supplements, though. you know... just in case"

My set would start with a Core Rulebook (a single book replacing the current PHB/DMG/MM trio). This should be in full colour, be about 250 pages long, and include as much as will fit. This probably means restricting the core set down to four races (Human, Elf, Dwarf, Halfling), four classes (Cleric, Fighter, Rogue, Wizard), and the first tier (my ideal version uses the tiers from BECM D&D, so would actually be the Basic and Expert tiers at levels 1-14. But, for the 4e version, that would mean levels 1-10). The other major rules change I advocate is to reduce the number of choices required to create a first level character - the choice of feat, or maybe even of powers could be deferred to second (or subsequent) levels. [...]

To me, a 4 race/4 class set sounds like a demo. I wouldn't buy it unless it's incredibly cheap but I'm probably not a fan of starter/basic sets in general. I want the full monty.
I guess I can wait for high level mechanics but after being spoiled by all the options in older editions, I expect a little more customization at character creation.

 

[ggroy]

The stances are an interesting aspect, the party stuff even more so.

Rules about guilds, clans, academies are interesting, another is the relationship between the player characters. All that helps to highlight the story role of the player characters, their place in the world.

Maybe we'll see something like this covered in PHB4 or DMG3.

 

[Wombat]

Personally, I find all the fiddly bits of WHRP 3e even less appealing that D&D 4e. I am not interested in keeping track of all of those counters and pieces -- reminds me far too much of the SPI board games I played in the late 70s...

 

[Cam Banks]

I really want to pick up this game. Here's why.

I look at the boxed set and I have come to the conclusion that this isn't a board game, it's an RPG supported by colorful components. There's no board, and the game isn't focused directly on little guys moving about a mat. It shares many things with 4E (cards for special attacks, etc) but it does to promote niche play for each character.

I don't think it'd be that hard to come up with homebrew stuff for the game, so long as everybody at the table is OK with that. Historically, one big drawback is the feeling that if it isn't on a specific card, stand-up, or (in the case of WFB) an official mini, then it doesn't count.

WFRP3E may not be the same game as its predecessors, but I think it brings a lot of very tactile and useful elements to the table. I endorse that whole-heartedly. Plus, you can tell this would translate eventually to a virtual gamespace really well, even on console game platforms. That's a big win.

Cheers,
Cam

 

[Herschel]

Am I the only person who looks at this and says, "That's too many fiddly bits, and I have no space for a giant box?" I'm buying as much as I can in PDF now to save shelf space. I own Arkham Horror, that fills my quota of giant boxes with tactile stuff in them, I see no need for this in my RPG's.

Add in BSG (and Pegasus expansion), Last Night on Earth, Touch of Evil, Shadows Over Camelot, Twilight Imperium......etc, etc. as well as a multitude of minis...........