Carlsen Chris
Explorer
No no this is unnecessary. Stop.
D&D (2024) What could One D&D do to bring the game back to the dungeon?
- Thread starter Reynard
- Start date
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From that the player can be sure they need a torch & have no room to argue when the GM says it's dark& they can't see well...
Here's what the 2dmg says...
On that same page is an entry for darkness
The fact that infravision was linked to heat or whatever the GM deems it linked to ensured that it was not simply magical biological nightvision goggles like darkvision & devils sight.
Going back to those old vision types would be a huge improvement actually, Here's what the 2e PHB has to say about infravision on page155
Infravision
Some characters and monsters have the power of infravision. This can mean one of two things, depending on whether the standard or the optional rule is used (this is discussed in detail in the Dungeon Master's Guide). The choice is left to the DM and he must tell the players how he wants infravision to work. Regardless of how the power functions, the range of infravision is at most 60 feet unless otherwise noted.
Some characters and monsters have the power of infravision. This can mean one of two things, depending on whether the standard or the optional rule is used (this is discussed in detail in the Dungeon Master's Guide). The choice is left to the DM and he must tell the players how he wants infravision to work. Regardless of how the power functions, the range of infravision is at most 60 feet unless otherwise noted.
Here's what the 2dmg says...
Infravision
There are two definitions of infraviion that can be used in the AD&D game. The first is simple but lacks detail. It is, however, a perfectly adequate definition for those who don’t want to bother with the complexities of infravision. The second, optional, definition, adds another
level of detail to the game. It allows the DM to create special situations in which the function of infravision becomes important, but requires the DM to keep track of more rules and more details.
Standard Infravision
The easiest definition of infravision is that it allows characters to see in the dark. Nothing more is said about how this works—it simply works. Characters do not see into the infared spectrum or “see’’ heat or anything else. They just see in the dark as clearly as they do in normal light. However, since it is a somewhat magical power, the range is not that of normal vision—infravision ability extends only 60 feet. Beyond this
only normal vision is allowed.
Optional Infravision
There are two definitions of infraviion that can be used in the AD&D game. The first is simple but lacks detail. It is, however, a perfectly adequate definition for those who don’t want to bother with the complexities of infravision. The second, optional, definition, adds another
level of detail to the game. It allows the DM to create special situations in which the function of infravision becomes important, but requires the DM to keep track of more rules and more details.
Standard Infravision
The easiest definition of infravision is that it allows characters to see in the dark. Nothing more is said about how this works—it simply works. Characters do not see into the infared spectrum or “see’’ heat or anything else. They just see in the dark as clearly as they do in normal light. However, since it is a somewhat magical power, the range is not that of normal vision—infravision ability extends only 60 feet. Beyond this
only normal vision is allowed.
Optional Infravision
This definition is much more scientific and accurate to
what we know of physical properties of the real world. To
its advantage, this definition makes infravision very differ-
ent from normal sight, with its own strengths and weak-
nesses. To its disadvantage, it introduces a certain amount
of scientific accuracy (with all its complications) into a
fantasy realm.
According to this definition, infravision is the ability to
sense or “see’’ heat. The best comparison is to thermal imag-
ing equipment used by the armed forces of many different
nations today. This special sense is limited to a 60-foot
range. Within this range, characters can see the degrees of
heat radiated by an object as a glowing blob translated into
colors like a thermagram.
If this definition is used, there are several things that
must be considered. First, large heat sources will temporar-
ily blind characters with infravision just as looking at a
bright light blinds those with normal vision. Thus, those
attempting to use infravision must make the effort to avoid
looking directly at fires or torches, either their own or the
enemy’s. (The light from magical items does not radiate
significant heat.) Second, the DM must be ready to state
how hot various things are. A literal interpretation of the
rule means that characters won’t be able to tell the floor
from the walls in most dungeons. All of it is the same tem-
perature, after all.
The DM must also be ready to decide if dungeon doors
are a different temperature (or radiate heat differently) from
stone walls. Does a different color or kind of stone radiate
heat differently from those around it? Does the ink of a page
radiate differently enough from the paper to be noticed?
Probably not. Can a character tell an orc from a hobgoblin or
a human? Most creatures have similar “thermal outlines”—
somewhat fuzzy blobs. They do not radiate at different tem-
peratures and even if they did, infravision is seldom so acute
as to register differences of just a few degrees.
Be sure you understand the effects this optional definition
of infravision can have—there are dangers in bringing scien-
tific accuracy to a fantasy game. By creating a specific defini-
tion of how this power works, the DM is inviting his players to
apply logic to the definition. The problem is, this is a fantasy
game and logic isn’t always sensible or even desired! So, be
aware that the optional definition may result in very strange
situations, all because logic and science are applied to some-
thing that isn’t logical or scientific.
what we know of physical properties of the real world. To
its advantage, this definition makes infravision very differ-
ent from normal sight, with its own strengths and weak-
nesses. To its disadvantage, it introduces a certain amount
of scientific accuracy (with all its complications) into a
fantasy realm.
According to this definition, infravision is the ability to
sense or “see’’ heat. The best comparison is to thermal imag-
ing equipment used by the armed forces of many different
nations today. This special sense is limited to a 60-foot
range. Within this range, characters can see the degrees of
heat radiated by an object as a glowing blob translated into
colors like a thermagram.
If this definition is used, there are several things that
must be considered. First, large heat sources will temporar-
ily blind characters with infravision just as looking at a
bright light blinds those with normal vision. Thus, those
attempting to use infravision must make the effort to avoid
looking directly at fires or torches, either their own or the
enemy’s. (The light from magical items does not radiate
significant heat.) Second, the DM must be ready to state
how hot various things are. A literal interpretation of the
rule means that characters won’t be able to tell the floor
from the walls in most dungeons. All of it is the same tem-
perature, after all.
The DM must also be ready to decide if dungeon doors
are a different temperature (or radiate heat differently) from
stone walls. Does a different color or kind of stone radiate
heat differently from those around it? Does the ink of a page
radiate differently enough from the paper to be noticed?
Probably not. Can a character tell an orc from a hobgoblin or
a human? Most creatures have similar “thermal outlines”—
somewhat fuzzy blobs. They do not radiate at different tem-
peratures and even if they did, infravision is seldom so acute
as to register differences of just a few degrees.
Be sure you understand the effects this optional definition
of infravision can have—there are dangers in bringing scien-
tific accuracy to a fantasy game. By creating a specific defini-
tion of how this power works, the DM is inviting his players to
apply logic to the definition. The problem is, this is a fantasy
game and logic isn’t always sensible or even desired! So, be
aware that the optional definition may result in very strange
situations, all because logic and science are applied to some-
thing that isn’t logical or scientific.
Darkness
Sooner or later characters wind up blundering around in the dark. Normally they try to avoid this, but clever DMs and foolish players generally manage to bring it about. Perhaps the kobolds captured the player characters and stripped them of all their gear; perhaps the characters forgot to bring enough torches. Whatever the reason, those without infravision suffer both physical and psychological effects in the dark.
For the purposes of this discussion, “darkness’’ means any time the characters suffer from limited visibility. Thus, the rules given here apply equally well when the characters are affected by a darkness spell, blundering about in pea-soup fog, out on a moonless night, or even blindfolded.
Since one can’t see anything in the dark, the safe movement rate of blinded characters is immediately slowed by 1⁄3 the normal amount. Faster movement requires a Dexterity check (see Chapter 14: Time and Movement). Characters also suffer a –4 penalty to attack rolls and saving throws. Their Armor Class is four worse than normal (to a limit of 10). Sight-related damage bonuses (backstabbing, etc.) are negated. However, darkness is not always absolute, and those DMs who wish to make distinctions between various levels of darkness can use Table 72.
The blindfighting proficiency can lessen the effects of fight-
ing in darkness as explained in the proficiency description in
the Player’s Handbook.
Sooner or later characters wind up blundering around in the dark. Normally they try to avoid this, but clever DMs and foolish players generally manage to bring it about. Perhaps the kobolds captured the player characters and stripped them of all their gear; perhaps the characters forgot to bring enough torches. Whatever the reason, those without infravision suffer both physical and psychological effects in the dark.
For the purposes of this discussion, “darkness’’ means any time the characters suffer from limited visibility. Thus, the rules given here apply equally well when the characters are affected by a darkness spell, blundering about in pea-soup fog, out on a moonless night, or even blindfolded.
Since one can’t see anything in the dark, the safe movement rate of blinded characters is immediately slowed by 1⁄3 the normal amount. Faster movement requires a Dexterity check (see Chapter 14: Time and Movement). Characters also suffer a –4 penalty to attack rolls and saving throws. Their Armor Class is four worse than normal (to a limit of 10). Sight-related damage bonuses (backstabbing, etc.) are negated. However, darkness is not always absolute, and those DMs who wish to make distinctions between various levels of darkness can use Table 72.
The blindfighting proficiency can lessen the effects of fight-
ing in darkness as explained in the proficiency description in
the Player’s Handbook.
The fact that infravision was linked to heat or whatever the GM deems it linked to ensured that it was not simply magical biological nightvision goggles like darkvision & devils sight.
I know @tetrasodium already saw it, but if anyone has any musings on vision types for D&D...
D&D General - Types of Vision for D&D and Other Fantasy RPGs (Besides Darkvision)
So 1e had Ultravision and Infravision. 3.5 had Low-Light and Darkvision and 5e has Darkvision. The former sounds too sci-fi to some and the later is too ubiquitous and overpowered to some. What would you put in a fantasy game? For me, it was kind of cool looking up the variety of eye types...
www.enworld.org
Charlaquin
Goblin Queen (She/Her/Hers)
It’s not about the monetary expense, it’s about the logistical considerations of light sources. As @reelo pointed out, carrying a torch or lantern occupies a hand, which can limit a character’s ability to wield weapons, manipulate spell components, or interact with the environment, unless they use action economy resources to put it down at the start of combat. More importantly though, it’s something you have to take into consideration when planning a delve into the dungeon. How many torches or vials of oil are you going to bring? Those take up inventory space/weight, and they can be a limiting factor on how long you can remain in the dungeon. Or would do, if the Wizard couldn’t just cast Light whenever they want. “Torches/lanterns go out” is also a standard dungeon complication, which doesn’t really matter if the players are relying on cantrips for light instead of torches or lanterns.
Charlaquin
Goblin Queen (She/Her/Hers)
I mean, generations are arbitrary and pretty vaguely defined. But by most definitions, Gen Y is just another name for millennials.
Clint_L
Legend
These arguments about 5e discouraging a particular old school play style are utterly unconvincing and are just folks grumping that the game isn't the same as in the golden years of their youth. It's the D&D equivalent of us old farts complaining that music just isn't as good anymore.
There is zero - ZERO - in 5e discouraging you from sitting down at a session 0 and stipulating limited/no dark vision, meticulous resource tracking, etc. If that is not happening at your table it's because your table doesn't want it to happen. Probably because most folks are pretty happy with the direction the game has gone and don't actually want to just do Keep on the Borderlands crawls with minimal story and character development.
Trying to make others play the game more like "in the good old days" is a doomed and misguided goal. Let's just worry about our own tables. If the kids don't want to dungeon crawl, it's not because they can't, it's because they are making a choice not to.
There is zero - ZERO - in 5e discouraging you from sitting down at a session 0 and stipulating limited/no dark vision, meticulous resource tracking, etc. If that is not happening at your table it's because your table doesn't want it to happen. Probably because most folks are pretty happy with the direction the game has gone and don't actually want to just do Keep on the Borderlands crawls with minimal story and character development.
Trying to make others play the game more like "in the good old days" is a doomed and misguided goal. Let's just worry about our own tables. If the kids don't want to dungeon crawl, it's not because they can't, it's because they are making a choice not to.
Desdichado
Hero
No, that's actually not true at all. Gen Y was a completely separate generation that NOW makes up the first half of Millennials, while the second half of the Millennial generation is what was called Millennials back when product marketing people still cared about Gen Y.
Charlaquin
Goblin Queen (She/Her/Hers)
I mean… The need to stipulate those things in session zero is what makes 5e discouraging to such play styles, whereas with another system, there might not be a need to stipulate such things because they’re a part of the core rules. That’s not to say that people who want to play that way aren’t “grumping that the game isn't the same as in the golden years of their youth,” many of them certainly are. But that doesn’t mean the game hasn’t genuinely changed in that time, in a way that makes it more work to play the way they did back then.
Also, there are some of us who didn’t experience the game that way during our youths, but have since discovered the playstyle and found it to our liking.
Desdichado
Hero
While I mostly agree with you, let me address each of these paragraphs in turn.
1) My Gen Z kids also complain that music isn't as good anymore. My 19 year old got really in to 80s Motley Crue, The Cult and Metallica. And he didn't really hear them from me; I'm much more of a synthesizer New Wave kind of guy; Depeche Mode, Duran Duran, and all that. Sometimes complaints are just old farts grumbling about nostalgia, but sometimes they have a point.
2) I have the same complaint about a lot of OSRians—their refrain seems to be "if only people would try this, it would solve all of their problems!" It's baloney. People who aren't playing OSR games aren't doing so because OSR games don't offer what they want from their gaming experience, and the games that they ARE playing do, by and large.
3) This has also always been my personal refrain about big tent movements. Who cares what someone else is doing? I've never been a big tent kind of guy anyway, I'm the kind of guy who wants to set up my own little tent in some private, quiet part of the woods. Big tentism is a supply driven initiative, because WotC wants to sell as many copies as they can. It's not demand driven, because people all want different things from the game, therefore being more modular, or even just offering different iterations on the same idea (i.e., different games) is the solution for consumers. I know some people get some kind of endorphin rush with feeling validated that their playstyle or favorite game or favorite rule or whatever is popular, but sometimes you just need to not worry about what anyone else is doing at their table and just worry about what you're going to do at your table.
Charlaquin
Goblin Queen (She/Her/Hers)
It is 100% true that generations are arbitrary and vaguely defined. It is also true that by most definitions, Gen Y is another name for Milennials. It may also be true that there are some definitions by which Gen Y is a separate generation between Gen X and millennials, and these definitions may have once been more common than they are now. These categories are socially constructed, and are subject to drift over time. There’s no central authority governing what the definitions of generations are, so one certainly could consider Gen Y a distinct generation, and one wouldn’t be wrong. But it wouldn’t be consistent with the current most commonly used definitions.
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