D&D (2024) What could One D&D do to bring the game back to the dungeon?

[Bedrockgames]

Thanks for the response.

Fair enough, my questions are motivated by the observation that a lot of the "back to the dungeon" or "5e cannot do exploration" or whatever are not really about the topic in the headline but the way the player and DMs interact with the rules. Since I like 5e and strongly dislike that Old School approach I am trying to understand the exact nature of the friction.

To be clear I am not of the opinion that 5E can't do the dungeon. I haven't played it enough (i've played like once or twice and also in a short 5E Lord of the Rings adventure). My response was more about my immediate reaction to character creation and how I felt it seemed a little involved. That is fine. But one common thread with dungeon focused D&D is simpler and faster character creation helps with getting back into the game after characters die (which just seems like more of a prominent feature of dungeon heavy campaigns). But that wasn't a statement about where 5E ought to go, what it is capable of doing, just my gut response to the question of how One can bring things more to the dungeon.

 

[Bedrockgames]

Oh! absolutely, I think that 5e is the way that it is, is that it represents the designers best approach of a game that was maximally acceptable to the player base as it existed at that time. I do believe that it is let down by the DMG. Which is really written for experience DMs that are bascially happy with the core 5e approach to D&D.
I also feel that the game is moddable to incorporate (at least elements of) other styles but completely lacking in any advice on how to do so.

Yes I am pretty certain that WoTC has information on play and playstyles above and beyond what is gleaned from UA survey data.

One thing I will also add is my recollection is 5E was meant as an edition to bring back player bases that had left the game (whether that was people who didn't make the transition from 2E to 3E, people who didn't make the transition to 4E, even people who didn't go from 1E to 2E---because a lot of the old school elements that seem present appear to be more pre-2E in spirit). They seem to have succeeded in bringing back a large swath of the hobby (I recall how evenly divided things were between D&D and Pathfinder and D&D and various other forms of D&D available through the OGL when 5E was coming out, and I believe it was a serious question whether D&D would remain the top dog). So they are probably doing something right, and doing something right probably means they have to be very cautious about what changes they make. In short 5E seems like an edition that most people I communicate with are satisfied with (obviously having specific quibbles as all editions receive, but there doesn't seem to be anything fundamentally wrong with it as an edition).

 

[UngainlyTitan]

One thing I will also add is my recollection is 5E was meant as an edition to bring back player bases that had left the game (whether that was people who didn't make the transition from 2E to 3E, people who didn't make the transition to 4E, even people who didn't go from 1E to 2E---because a lot of the old school elements that seem present appear to be more pre-2E in spirit). They seem to have succeeded in bringing back a large swath of the hobby (I recall how evenly divided things were between D&D and Pathfinder and D&D and various other forms of D&D available through the OGL when 5E was coming out, and I believe it was a serious question whether D&D would remain the top dog). So they are probably doing something right, and doing something right probably means they have to be very cautious about what changes they make. In short 5E seems like an edition that most people I communicate with are satisfied with (obviously having specific quibbles as all editions receive, but there doesn't seem to be anything fundamentally wrong with it as an edition).

Totally agree, which is why we are seeing design within the constraints of popularity.

 

[payn]

Totally agree, which is why we are seeing design within the constraints of popularity.

To be fair, I think its for the best. D&D should be big tent, which means the ultimate dungeon crawler, tactical combat, system mastery chargen, etc.. isnt going to happen. Once upon a time modularity might have ushered in these things, but 5E proved to be too popular on its own as a general fantasy RPG system.

 

[UngainlyTitan]

To be fair, I think its for the best. D&D should be big tent, which means the ultimate dungeon crawler, tactical combat, system mastery chargen, etc.. isnt going to happen. Once upon a time modularity might have ushered in these things, but 5E proved to be too popular on its own as a general fantasy RPG system.

I would have like some additional optional subsystems to drift the game in a particular direction. Though we may be seeing third party support for some of this. Cubicle 7's Uncharted Journeys for overland travel may be the start of 3rd party support for areas not covered in the core game.

 

[payn]

I would have like some additional optional subsystems to drift the game in a particular direction. Though we may be seeing third party support for some of this. Cubicle 7's Uncharted Journeys for overland travel may be the start of 3rd party support for areas not covered in the core game.

Modularity was pitched during Next (5E development, but they never had to return to the concept so its left in the dust bin. However, I think that is just ripe for opportunity for third party. If folks are not just making their own systems.

 

[Micah Sweet]

There is a lot to unpack here: paragraphs please.

I largely agree, I was using 5e because I am more familiar with it (I have not played TSR D&D in over 30 years) and because the thread tile is to bring the game back to the dungeon and that would be a thing starting from 5e (the current edition).

As I say I largely agree as to your point about the nature of the divide and that it is most stark in the change from AD&D 2e to D&D 3.x. However, I would note that elements of the change were appearing in AD&D (as you also note). I think the split in (lets call it) level of abstraction of environment is the divide and it is independent of dungeons. So, could it be invoked in 5e (or 3,x) by a culture of play where skill/ability checks are never called by the players and only called by the DM once the appropriate level of interaction has been reached.

Is this enough to restore player skill in to the game.

Would this play the same if the skill/proficiencies and the ability to call for ability checks was explicitly agreed at the table was reserved for the DM only?
To what degree are cantrips an issue?

This is still the way I play, as much as possible. I resist attempts by my players to simply say, for example, "I roll a Perception check", and instead ask them to tell me what they want to do. If a check seems appropriate, I ask for one. Otherwise, I might run the whole thing without dice. It feels more immersive to me, and I think to my players as well.

 

[Micah Sweet]

There is a lot to unpack here: paragraphs please.

I largely agree, I was using 5e because I am more familiar with it (I have not played TSR D&D in over 30 years) and because the thread tile is to bring the game back to the dungeon and that would be a thing starting from 5e (the current edition).

As I say I largely agree as to your point about the nature of the divide and that it is most stark in the change from AD&D 2e to D&D 3.x. However, I would note that elements of the change were appearing in AD&D (as you also note). I think the split in (lets call it) level of abstraction of environment is the divide and it is independent of dungeons. So, could it be invoked in 5e (or 3,x) by a culture of play where skill/ability checks are never called by the players and only called by the DM once the appropriate level of interaction has been reached.

Is this enough to restore player skill in to the game.

Would this play the same if the skill/proficiencies and the ability to call for ability checks was explicitly agreed at the table was reserved for the DM only?
To what degree are cantrips an issue?

Cantrips are my biggest issue with emulating old school play (the rest/recovery mechanics are a close second).

 

[Micah Sweet]

One thing I will also add is my recollection is 5E was meant as an edition to bring back player bases that had left the game (whether that was people who didn't make the transition from 2E to 3E, people who didn't make the transition to 4E, even people who didn't go from 1E to 2E---because a lot of the old school elements that seem present appear to be more pre-2E in spirit). They seem to have succeeded in bringing back a large swath of the hobby (I recall how evenly divided things were between D&D and Pathfinder and D&D and various other forms of D&D available through the OGL when 5E was coming out, and I believe it was a serious question whether D&D would remain the top dog). So they are probably doing something right, and doing something right probably means they have to be very cautious about what changes they make. In short 5E seems like an edition that most people I communicate with are satisfied with (obviously having specific quibbles as all editions receive, but there doesn't seem to be anything fundamentally wrong with it as an edition).

This is the crux of my concern about the new edition. I believe they were doing it right in 2014 where they were appealing to a base they were trying to bring back in (like me!). But the new direction of the last few years seems to be explicitly moving away from that goal towards what they think all the new people who have joined up since then want. If they're right, what most people want is not what I want, and ultimately that is why they've basically lost me at this point.

 

[Reynard]

This is the crux of my concern about the new edition. I believe they were doing it right in 2014 where they were appealing to a base they were trying to bring back in (like me!). But the new direction of the last few years seems to be explicitly moving away from that goal towards what they think all the new people who have joined up since then want. If they're right, what most people want is not what I want, and ultimately that is why they've basically lost me at this point.

I mean, it will have been 10 years and some uncounted new, generally younger and more diverse millions of players have discovered D&D. It would be utterly silly for them to aim at the same people they already recaptured, who are now a small minority of the player base.