Ranger REG
Explorer
WotC tried to make it easy, but most of the vocal purists don't want Dungeons & Dragons text dumbed down so that even a 5-year-old can play. Then again, how many 5-year-olds got $30+ to buy the books?mxyzplk said:
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D&D 4E What D&D 4e Should Learn From World of Warcraft
- Thread starter mxyzplk
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ruleslawyer
Registered User
One thing about the "ease" of WoW:
This is much, much easier to do in a computer game than in tabletop for several reasons: Mainly, because you can keep most of the serious mechanics stuff *behind the curtain* by letting the game do the work. For instance, when I spend points to buff up Kratos's abilities playing God of War, I'm not actually figuring out how it works by the numbers, because the computer does that for me. There are probably some players out there who have analyzed average damage and could tell me what the percentage gain is from enhancing Sword of Artemis vs. Spear of Destiny, but I don't *need* that information in order to make a choice.
Now, this would make an interesting rules-light variant; you could figure out an interface system whereby the player asks for something, and the DM does the math. Then you only have one person who needs to understand the full mechanics and how they work. To an extent, it works this way IMC; I encourage my players to just tell me what they're doing in narrative terms, and I figure out the mechanics. Since I'm fast, it goes smoothly.
This is much, much easier to do in a computer game than in tabletop for several reasons: Mainly, because you can keep most of the serious mechanics stuff *behind the curtain* by letting the game do the work. For instance, when I spend points to buff up Kratos's abilities playing God of War, I'm not actually figuring out how it works by the numbers, because the computer does that for me. There are probably some players out there who have analyzed average damage and could tell me what the percentage gain is from enhancing Sword of Artemis vs. Spear of Destiny, but I don't *need* that information in order to make a choice.
Now, this would make an interesting rules-light variant; you could figure out an interface system whereby the player asks for something, and the DM does the math. Then you only have one person who needs to understand the full mechanics and how they work. To an extent, it works this way IMC; I encourage my players to just tell me what they're doing in narrative terms, and I figure out the mechanics. Since I'm fast, it goes smoothly.
I'd never consider WoW's World as even a fraction as deep as the Forgotten Realms, Eberron, or any other campaign setting that received support for a few D&D editions.
The drive to get "Phat Lewt" is what puts me off such games - and of course the mindless, boring level grind.
The drive to get "Phat Lewt" is what puts me off such games - and of course the mindless, boring level grind.
Relique du Madde
Adventurer
Fenes said:
Sorry to disappoint you, but WoW IS a detailed setting on par with Eberron but suffers due to the amount of monty haulism that takes place in the campaign world as well as most players lack of interest in the setting's fluff.
If most of the setting's details weren't trapped within the context of the Warcraft Games, the MMORPG and their expansions, I'm pretty sure it would fill out several volumes beyond those dozen books that were produced by Sword and Sorcery Studios.
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RigaMortus2
First Post
mxyzplk said:
And yet, how many PvP servers are there compared to normal servers? Surely all-out PvP is NOT the draw of WoW. Sorry, you are just wrong here.
1. Everyone has special abilities to use in combat.
Every class is already unique, and each has their own uses. Every single character having an endless supply of gimicks gets silly and time consuming. I thought Feats did a good job of differentiating characters, but that's 3.x.
2. Azeroth is a deep and interesting world.
This one had my LOL. Are you kidding me? 4.0 is a money grab, if you think there will not be dozens of books on every single aspect of many different campaigns you're kidding yourself. They can't WAIT to splat out non-core books by the dozen, just give it time, the flood will come.
3. Instant action.
This ALWAYS depends on the players. How familiar are they with the rules? How much do they feel like metagaming? How many 'lete uber powers and items do they have to slog through to figure out what to do. Even in the days of limited options combat was only as fast as the slowest player.
4. PvP.
Wow, and not WoW. If you want PvP play an evil campaign. These kinds of things can be done in small doses, and that's about it. The joy of building a character over a long time and then watching it go down in flames as someone cheers your loss is something best over the internet, and NOT in RPG. You want fist fights and/or loss of players? This idea is frankly stupid.
5. WoW is easy.
Computer games, video games in general, are easier because you don't have to learn any of the in depth rules, more just What to do. RPG will never, ever be as simple as a computer game. That makes me happy.
6. People can do what they want to.
Why have any rules at all? Just give yourself invincible everything and call yourself the ruler of the universe already.
7. Phat lewt.
This all depends on the DM, and not the rules. Rules are just a framework and if your DM is a tightwad there's no hope anyways. I've always been generous with items, why not? I'm the DM and I can overpower anything I hand out. Unlimited resources vs. players = Win. If you have a problem with not getting any "phat lewt" your DM is probably a tight wad.
Every class is already unique, and each has their own uses. Every single character having an endless supply of gimicks gets silly and time consuming. I thought Feats did a good job of differentiating characters, but that's 3.x.
2. Azeroth is a deep and interesting world.
This one had my LOL. Are you kidding me? 4.0 is a money grab, if you think there will not be dozens of books on every single aspect of many different campaigns you're kidding yourself. They can't WAIT to splat out non-core books by the dozen, just give it time, the flood will come.
3. Instant action.
This ALWAYS depends on the players. How familiar are they with the rules? How much do they feel like metagaming? How many 'lete uber powers and items do they have to slog through to figure out what to do. Even in the days of limited options combat was only as fast as the slowest player.
4. PvP.
Wow, and not WoW. If you want PvP play an evil campaign. These kinds of things can be done in small doses, and that's about it. The joy of building a character over a long time and then watching it go down in flames as someone cheers your loss is something best over the internet, and NOT in RPG. You want fist fights and/or loss of players? This idea is frankly stupid.
5. WoW is easy.
Computer games, video games in general, are easier because you don't have to learn any of the in depth rules, more just What to do. RPG will never, ever be as simple as a computer game. That makes me happy.
6. People can do what they want to.
Why have any rules at all? Just give yourself invincible everything and call yourself the ruler of the universe already.
7. Phat lewt.
This all depends on the DM, and not the rules. Rules are just a framework and if your DM is a tightwad there's no hope anyways. I've always been generous with items, why not? I'm the DM and I can overpower anything I hand out. Unlimited resources vs. players = Win. If you have a problem with not getting any "phat lewt" your DM is probably a tight wad.
delericho
Legend
I agree with several of your points:
Agreed. A newbie player should be able to create a character of any level in that first tier in 20 minutes, maximum. Of course, if the player insists on agonising over every choice, then it will take longer, and expert players who want to work in much more detail can have that option. But, creating any single-class character of any level up to 10 should be possible quickly and simply.
Also agreed. Of course, one of the things that WotC promised was that the new edition would be simpler, and faster both to prep and to run. If they actually deliver this, it will be a good thing. (Unfortunately, things like the Doomspore, the elven 'aura' power, and the over-use of Bloodied conditions in non-BBEG monsters leads me to some concern.)
One thing they need to watch out for, IMO, is a really simple core that hides a lot of complexity. On the face of it, 3e should be really simple - just roll d20, add modifiers, and beat a target number. However, the micromanagement of minor modifiers to ensure that the stacking is optimal, and the nightmare that was applying ability and level adjustments on the fly, could cause the game to slow right down.
Again, this is something that the 4e design has promised some work on. The reliance on the 'big six' items seems to be gone, in favour of fewer, better items. Whether this actually comes to fruition as promised remains to be seen.
I have to disagree on both of these, though. D&D already supports PvP if the players want it. And, frankly, I don't want the rules to support things like fishing. It's far better, IMO, for the rules to have a fairly tight focus on the "adventure-stuff" and do that really well, rather than trying to cover too many bases. Now, personally, I wouldn't have eliminated the Craft or Profession skills, since they're hardly significant drains on space or complexity, and do add a certain completeness to the skill-list. But I'm not going to miss them too much.
mxyzplk said:
Agreed. A newbie player should be able to create a character of any level in that first tier in 20 minutes, maximum. Of course, if the player insists on agonising over every choice, then it will take longer, and expert players who want to work in much more detail can have that option. But, creating any single-class character of any level up to 10 should be possible quickly and simply.
Also agreed. Of course, one of the things that WotC promised was that the new edition would be simpler, and faster both to prep and to run. If they actually deliver this, it will be a good thing. (Unfortunately, things like the Doomspore, the elven 'aura' power, and the over-use of Bloodied conditions in non-BBEG monsters leads me to some concern.)
One thing they need to watch out for, IMO, is a really simple core that hides a lot of complexity. On the face of it, 3e should be really simple - just roll d20, add modifiers, and beat a target number. However, the micromanagement of minor modifiers to ensure that the stacking is optimal, and the nightmare that was applying ability and level adjustments on the fly, could cause the game to slow right down.
Again, this is something that the 4e design has promised some work on. The reliance on the 'big six' items seems to be gone, in favour of fewer, better items. Whether this actually comes to fruition as promised remains to be seen.
mxyzplk said:
I have to disagree on both of these, though. D&D already supports PvP if the players want it. And, frankly, I don't want the rules to support things like fishing. It's far better, IMO, for the rules to have a fairly tight focus on the "adventure-stuff" and do that really well, rather than trying to cover too many bases. Now, personally, I wouldn't have eliminated the Craft or Profession skills, since they're hardly significant drains on space or complexity, and do add a certain completeness to the skill-list. But I'm not going to miss them too much.
Corinth
First Post
WOW is easy all right, until you reach the level cap and hit the endgame. Then WOW turns into a hardcore game, because there are only two things to do to keep character refinement and progression going: organized PVP (premade Battleground groups as well as Arena teams) and raiding. Both of them require the same commitment to rules mastery, the same commitment to regular gameplay appointments, etc. as playing D&D does- and the folks that do it are open about how being min-maxing powergamers is a good thing.
(And the catch is, they're right; that 20% or less of the 9.3 million open, active accounts worldwide really does drive 80% of WOW's development.)
(And the catch is, they're right; that 20% or less of the 9.3 million open, active accounts worldwide really does drive 80% of WOW's development.)
ObsidianCrane
First Post
mxyzplk said:
Really 4E is borrowing Design concepts from WoW.
Things like coming out and declaring the Roles of characters isn't really changing their presence in the game - its just laying that design element out there where everyone can see it.
DnD isn't becoming WoW - but the existence of WoW has given designers the tools to communicate complex design choices to players easily through a common, already existing language.
Really when you sit down, break out the dice and start rolling and hitting things all you will notice is you have more cool things to do each battle than you used to have - I'm pretty sure as the designer's have said that will make it more fun. I'm also pretty sure it will feel just like the DnD you've always known - except more fun.
Don't confuse common design concepts that exist between the games for a common play experience.
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