What D&D can learn from spaghetti sauce

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Something about "Bael Turath" which sounds like a random name plucked from someone's homebrew, oh and there's this world with no map which is whatever you want it to be, so in a way it doesn't even pretend to exist. But it didn't work, and now it all seems phoney, even the earlier edition worlds which I "bought" in a suspension of disbelief sense.

I suspect all settings started as homebrews. Except the ones that were created by 1 Billion Billion monkeys that were sent out to write Shakespeare...

 

[Wolfspider]

Far too early to say that preliminary sales reports indicate that the game is doing tremendously well? Maybe you missed all of the official quotes about print run sizes and sales figures (or you simply don't want to acknowledge them). This is, however, exactly what the preliminary sales reports indicate. Thus, it isn't too early to say so.

It was my impression, and it is quite possible that I am wrong, that these were not actually sales figures but figures indicating that the entire first batch of books had already been accepted by all the distributors. (I'm not sure that's what it's called.)

Or are you saying that all the tens of thousands of 4e books that they printed have already been bought and are in the hands of greedy little RPGers everywhere?

I would like some clarification on this point. Thanks.

 

[rounser]

I suspect all settings started as homebrews. Except the ones that were created by 1 Billion Billion monkeys that were sent out to write Shakespeare...

Well, yes, but I mean it's just this name, floating out there in space. The tiefling empire, somewhere in the past of this world with no map, that we know almost nothing about, except something regarding the dragonborn empire. There's no context to it so it doesn't seem real.

I think either nothing (just an implied setting with no specific world) or the whole hog (here's WHFRP's Old World, and it takes place HERE), or at least a sample world (Rules Cyclopedia's Mystara chapter, which at least has a MAP) would have been better.

I mean, I'm used to envisaging D&D worlds. Without a map or a name, and instead just some motherhood statements about the nature of the world, plus a couple of empires floating somewhere in the past, I think newcomers are going to quite rightfully question this thing's existence.

I know I sure did. I never had that problem with FR, GH, DL, DS, KW...they all made me want to believe.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Well, yes, but I mean it's just this name, floating out there in space. The tiefling empire, somewhere in the past of this world with no map, that we know almost nothing about, except something regarding the dragonborn empire. There's no context to it so it doesn't seem real.

I think either nothing (just an implied setting with no specific world) or the whole hog (here's WHFRP's Old World, and it takes place HERE), or at least a sample world (Rules Cyclopedia's Mystara chapter, which at least has a MAP) would have been better.

I mean, I'm used to envisaging D&D worlds. Without a map or a name, and instead just some motherhood statements about the nature of the world, plus a couple of empires floating somewhere in the past, I think newcomers are going to quite rightfully question this thing's existence.

I know I sure did. I never had that problem with FR, GH, DL, DS, KW...they all made me want to believe.

The idea of Points of Lights is that the setting is only real if you make it real. You have to make the definite, final decisions on how it looks. I find this approach refreshing and inspiring. It doesn't seem to work for you, apparantly.

(Unless the infinite wisdom I disperse in my posts made you see the

Spoiler

Points of?

Light.)

Just as an example - a setting like Forgotton Realms always gave me the feeling that I had no control. There is tons of material out there, and I don't know it, and I will also never catch up with it. This means that any of my players could come and say: "No, that's not how it is. In the novel XYZ or sourcebook ABC, it is written". That's, of course, irrational of me - I don't think any of my players would do that.
But that doesn't change the feeling.

Greyhawk was a little easier, until I learned that it also has a rich background and is not as weakly defined as the 3E Core Rules let me believe.

Diamond Throne, the Arcana Unearthed/Evolved implied setting, felt different again - I could keep up with the background, since it was all new. Eberron was similar, but I am not sure it's still like that. But both settings have the advantage that they don't have an advancing time-line, and that makes me feel "safer".
PoL is even better for me in all regards - it provides enough back-droppings to give me some creative input, but leaves so much undetailed that I know it's my setting and I can do whatever I like.

 

[rounser]

The idea of Points of Lights is that the setting is only real if you make it real. You have to make the definite, final decisions on how it looks. I find this approach refreshing and inspiring. It doesn't seem to work for you, apparantly.

Well, no. We've got these deities, and empires in the past...look if I'm going to homebrew, I want control over those things, not to have them dicated to me. That's some of the easy, fun stuff that they've taken away right there - the history of the world and the gods.

There's a "somewhere" where those gods and two empires belong, so automatically people start wondering about where the other canon is hidden. If there is none, why not just leave us the heck alone to get on with unfettered worldbuilding?

Right, yeah - newbies need gods for their PCs, and they wanted some fluff to justify the existence of their two new races so they could talk about them all emo-like. Those reasons really aren't good enough. You've impinged on the worldbuilding of every D&D game out there for THAT? I could dig it if these gods were present throughout the D&D multiverse as defaults if you've got nothing better cooking, but dictating history just so your fluff reads better...

The D&D world wants to have it both ways, to be a specific setting yet not, and I don't really buy it. I don't believe it. Will new players, given this theoretical place has no name and no map? All or nothing would probably have been better IMO.

I know there's not an easy, obvious solution to this implied setting thing, but there had to be a better one than this I'd assume...

 

[Jack99]

It was my impression, and it is quite possible that I am wrong, that these were not actually sales figures but figures indicating that the entire first batch of books had already been accepted by all the distributors. (I'm not sure that's what it's called.)

Or are you saying that all the tens of thousands of 4e books that they printed have already been bought and are in the hands of greedy little RPGers everywhere?

I would like some clarification on this point. Thanks.

Tens of thousands? Try higher - Check out the pictures on Scott's blog, there is no way first print was less than 500k books, quite possibly much more.

There was also a post by The_Rouse a few days ago (on this board) about the new books making various best-seller lists, matching (or beating) 3.5 numbers at their peak. However, someone broke my search function atm.

 

[broghammerj]

Well, first and most notably, preliminary sales reports indicate that D&D 4e is doing tremendously well in the RPG market, so we don't have the hypothetical situation you describe.

I don't really like what I see in 4E, but I still plan on buying the books to get a better look at the game. If I don't buy another 4E book after that is 4E still doing tremendously in comparison to me previously purchasing multiple 3E splatbooks? I think I am not alone.

 

[Fifth Element]

To the OP: can you tell us the name of the company? Tales with a heavy moral like this (be it in business or otherwise) tend to be apocryphal.

 

[Fifth Element]

There's a "somewhere" where those gods and two empires belong, so automatically people start wondering about where the other canon is hidden. If there is none, why not just leave us the heck alone to get on with unfettered worldbuilding?

Please. You can say the same thing about dwarves and elves and pretty much anything else that's ever been published in D&D. Why do they have to force dwarven mountain kingdoms on us? Who's this guy named Tenser? He's got spells named after him, he must be an important part of the world. What if I don't want a guy named Tenser in my world? Etc, etc.

 

[Olgar Shiverstone]

One challenge with this analogy: for the most part, I suspect spaghetti sauce companies don't market most of their products to people who make their own spaghetti sauce. The nature of D&D means that most of your audience is at the very least modifying the game (making new adventures, modifying published, etc) if not recreating much from scratch. How does that change your marketing strategy, when a large portion of your audience won't use the product as provided? Spaghetti sauce companies can probably afford to ignore that segment of the market; WotC probably can't.