What details do you miss from older editions?

[Remathilis]

Ah, what do I miss...

Dead Zone ability scores ranging from 8-14.

Racial Minimums and Maximums. Viva la' difference

Prime Requisites, punishing a PC further for not having good scores

racial level limits

Dual-classed game-breaking PCs

All or nothing proficiencies

Rule-contridcitions

Kits, especially ones that gave awesome benefits for reaction roll penalties

Better Sub-classes than main classes

Forgotten Realms Specialty Priests

Imbalanced Priest Spheres

-10 AC limit

Punching/Wrestling Tables

Level Titles (Cool, I just went from being a superhero to a... Swashbuckler?!?)

Monks not gaining any benefit from their ability scores

HD caps, complete with con caps

Useless Charisma, especially for druids

Fighting other druids/monks to gain levels, failing and having to retire or try again

...

In all seriousness, I miss a playable half-ogre race. Savage Species version is horrible, and DLCS is too Krynn-specific. Maybe Races of Stone might help out there...

 

[Psion]

Being an old PS fan, I'm with Shemeska on several issues. Para and Quasielemental planes, for example, and several other ommisions from the 3e version of the cosmology.

For that matter, I miss having an officially supported PS setting!

I also miss the ability to tweak class abilities like S&P, though I guess it's not so much gone so much as in the DM's court.

I miss the non-world specificness of things that have been sucked into FR. Don't get me wrong... 3e FR is a fine product. But I dislike having to filter through the FR spin on things if I want Shades or Avariels, or the demihuman deities other than the ones included in the PHB.

I miss a comeliness or appearance score (and think most attempts by third parties and fans to replace it have been botched.)

That said, there are a lot of replies in this forum that I don't miss...

 

[kengar]

Hey Kengar, are you going to the D&D Meetup on Saturday at the Game Parlor in Chantilly?

Sadly, no. Because-
1) I was unaware of it on account of being dumber than dirt.
2) I will be in Ohio for a family to-do until Sun PM

 

[DungeonmasterCal]

i don't miss anything from the better editions. i'm still willing to play them. check the gamers seeking gamers forum.

In truth, there are no "better" editions. Only editions we like better. I personally wouldn't go back to 1e or 2e on a bet, and I've never played "Basic D&D" (having come into the hobby during the heyday of 1e). Did I dislike those older editions so much I never played them? Not at all. I loved those editions and the games I played and DM'd during those days. But those days belong in the past, and I really enjoy 3e and 3.5's simpler mechanic (which I feel allows for faster play and much greater flexibility in resolving actions) and more customizable character creation methods. All in all, I like living in the present.

 

[LordVyreth]

I think I'm in the honestly not much category. The only one I can think of is the lack of DiTerlizzi artwork.

Okay, I am annoyed at the inability to make an NPC quickly. But I blame that more on the half-done job they did in the 3.5 DMG than on the rules themselves.

 

[Arnwyn]

I miss loads of things... I can't possibly list them all (but I'll list a few biggies):

- habitat/ecology/frequency of monsters
- one-monster-per-page monster manuals
- loads of different "weirder" spells
- weapon/spell speed factors
- better art
- potion miscibility table
- hobbit-like halflings
- yugoloths with decent stats
- specialty priests (ie. priests with flavor)
- magical aging
- smaller stat blocks, and complete NPCs that can be made in minutes
- a FR without change for the sake of change
- drow items dissolving in sunlight
- some of the kits

Thankfully, I've added everything back in that was missing with 3e.

3E's laissez faire attitude to campaign development is a real killjoy for me, offset only by how good the mechanics of the game have become.

This describes how I feel beautifully.

 

[Belegbeth]

1. I preferred it when there wasn't an assumed/default level of magic across the board, and when magic items weren't easily bought and sold as commodities. (Yes, I know that it's all flexible in 3E. But we're talking preferences here.)

2. The Illusionist core class. I like the notion of specialist mages being truly different from normal mages. The new specialist varients in UA are a nice step along that road, but I still miss this guy.

3. Art. I won't go into detail, for fear of reigniting this old argument, but I preferred an artistic style that was less comic-booky, more geared towards scenes/sequences than portraits, and portrayed people with armor and weapons that looked vaguely realistic.

4. Combat rules that weren't quite so heavily geared towards minis. It didn't matter in 1E/2E what "square" you were in; either you were close enough to hit or you weren't.

I agree with all these points -- a very nice summary!

I'll add the point about being able to make quick NPCs that others on this thread have mentioned.

Also, during the 1st edition days of the late 70's and 80's, most campaigns were home-brews (and assumed to be so by TSR). Now, my impression is that home-brews are increasingly rare (maybe not on these boards, but certainly at the WotC site, and probably in the gaming community in general). One of the chief joys of DM'ing has been deemphasized/neglected by WotC.

 

[Samothdm]

I had a few questions about some of the things brought up here.

1) Weapon Speed Factors. You guys actually used these? I played in several different games with different DMs, players, and in different states and never once was in a game where people used these. I really never saw the point.

2) Old 1e Multi-classing Rules. Really? I can see the idea of advancing both classes at once, but there are variants for doing that in the Player's Handbook. What is it that you miss about the "old" way of multi-classing? I like the new way better, especially how it allows humans to not have to work within the cumbersome "dual-classing" rules.

3) Artwork. I think that this is just really subjective. There were some nice pieces in the earlier editions, but there were also some very poorly drawn pieces with bad/improper perspective and inaccurate anatomy (limbs that were too long, too short, etc.). Quite a few of them in the very early days were simply amateurish (see the original Greyhawk and Blackmoor books for evidence). What specifically is it that you all don't seem to like, and which specific pieces from Basic/1E/2E do you like?

4) Halflings That Were More Tolkiensian. So, make that flavor text yourself. That stats wouldn't really change, would they? Most of the races, especially the elves and halflings, have changed greatly since Basic and 1E in an attempt to make them more uniquely "D&D" as opposed to "Tolkien". If you want to play in a Tolkien-style world, I don't think it's that difficult to change the background and flavor text of the races.

One thing that I definitely do miss as the Specialty Priests from 2nd Edition. I didn't play a lot of 2E (less than I did 1E and now 3.xE), but reading through the descriptions it seemed like you could really create a priest of Deity X who was much different from a Priest of Deity Y.

 

[Orius]

[flamebait]You guys actually miss some of that crap?[/flamebait]

Seriously though, there a few things that I do miss. The classic artwork is definitely one of them. I definitely prefer the old class art styles to the art WotC uses. I don't like the punk look, heavy body piercings and tatoos. I like realistic looking weapons and armor, none of this silly spiky stuff, wierd shaped shields, and so on. It may look "kewl and fresh" to some people, but to me it looks stupid. Warriors used the gear they used because it was effective, not because of how it looked. Remember when books would by mostly black and white with some full-color image plates scattered throughout? I'd rather have more products of my imagination (as long as the rules are good), than overpriced glossy four-colored books with a lot of bad art.

I'm kind of mixed on the whole cleric/specialty priest issue. I remember towards the end of 2e, specialty priests started edging out clerics. I think 3e did what it did to bring the basic cleric back. And specialty priests were horridly imbalanced, you had over-nerfed priests from the Complete Priest's Handbook compared to overpowered priests from Faiths and Avatars. Spheres were imbalanced to some degree, you had some great spheres, and some that were utter crap. However, the base cleric simply doesn't work for some types of gods. Not all faiths I see as having militant priests, and some diversity would be good as well.

No wierd spells aren't really a problem for me. Spells aren't really that hard to convert. PCs can still find those old spells IMC, with some exceptions. No find familiar, not needed anymore. No metamagic spells, that's covered by feats.

Don't miss crumbling drow magic items, because I never used it that way. I never bought into the "strange magical radiation" of the classic Underdark.

 

[Belegbeth]

3) Artwork. I think that this is just really subjective. There were some nice pieces in the earlier editions, but there were also some very poorly drawn pieces with bad/improper perspective and inaccurate anatomy (limbs that were too long, too short, etc.). Quite a few of them in the very early days were simply amateurish (see the original Greyhawk and Blackmoor books for evidence). What specifically is it that you all don't seem to like, and which specific pieces from Basic/1E/2E do you like?

Yes some of the 1st edition and B/E DnD artwork was pretty bad, and some 3.x edition artwork is quite good. But one thing I will say in favour of the old art is that at least a variety of different styles were represented; TSR was not afraid to allow for some interesting variety. Erol Otus, Jeff Dee, and Trampier (three of my favourite old-school artists) had very different styles. Now it seems as though all WotC artists aspire to emulate the same style, which is pretty tedious. Also annoying is the presence of weapons and armour that look absurd/cartoonish (and so many piercings, tattoos, punk hair styles, etc.).