What did the hand say to the face?

[RigaMortus2]

I disagree.

Surprise, to me, and by RAW, is when one is unaware of an an opponent and the opponent decides to enter initiative. Something has to happen to make the 'surprisee' aware that they need to be on guard...whether that be a spot/listen check, a sense motive check (in this case), or a surprise standard action after a failed check.

But if your friend decides to smack you out of the blue, how do you know he is an opponent until after it happens? Or at least, as it is happening?

I agree, if two people are both aware of each other, but neither appear to be hostile to each other until a certain point, then Bluff vs. Sense Motive would be the best thing IMHO. In fact, that is how we play it.

 

[Kae'Yoss]

I disagree.

Surprise, to me, and by RAW, is when one is unaware of an an opponent and the opponent decides to enter initiative. Something has to happen to make the 'surprisee' aware that they need to be on guard...whether that be a spot/listen check, a sense motive check (in this case), or a surprise standard action after a failed check.

So, basically, you disagree with me when I say that there should be some kind of roll involved, because you think there should be some kind of roll involved?

 

[Kae'Yoss]

But if your friend decides to smack you out of the blue, how do you know he is an opponent until after it happens? Or at least, as it is happening?

He tenses before he strikes. He has a gleam in the eye. There's any other sign. It might be small, but it's there. If I make my sense motive check, I noticed it, I sensed his motive. If he barely makes a sign, his bluff check was good enough.

I agree, if two people are both aware of each other, but neither appear to be hostile to each other until a certain point, then Bluff vs. Sense Motive would be the best thing IMHO. In fact, that is how we play it.

Just as I say. You don't give people free surprise rounds just because they don't state their intention before they commence.

If you could catch others by surprise if you walked up to them innocently and then attacked them, all the assassins would not bother with all that sneaking business, they'd just walk up on people and front stab them.

 

[James McMurray]

I disagree.

Surprise, to me, and by RAW, is when one is unaware of an an opponent and the opponent decides to enter initiative. Something has to happen to make the 'surprisee' aware that they need to be on guard...whether that be a spot/listen check, a sense motive check (in this case), or a surprise standard action after a failed check.

Exactamundo

 

[blargney the second]

This just came up in last night's game. I successfully disguised myself as an enemy soldier to draw them downstairs where my party waited in ambush. My allies made Hide checks for the surprise round and I made a Bluff check.

 

[Mistwell]

There is no surprise round.You are aware of your opponent, thus, you are not surprised. There's a big difference between being aware of your opponent and being aware that a creature is you opponent. Only the first matters for surprise.

In a situation like the one described, where someone suddenly starts combat, I would give the instigator a +2 circumstance bonus on the initiative check, because he has a better idea of what's coming than anyone else.

The key word in this case is opponent.

Are you aware you HAVE an oppenent? Until you are, you are surprised if they suddenly attack you.

I agree that this calls for a bluff vs. sense motive. If you suceed, you now know you have an oppoent before they strike. If you fail, you remain unaware you have an opponent, and it will be a surprise round.

Hiding behind a door and bursting in by surprise is no more or less surprising than some guy randomly smacking you in the face unexpectedly from the barstool next to you. In fact, if I lived in a dungeon in Greyhawk for example, I would more expect adventurers to come busting in my door at any moment regardless of what I heard, before I would expect to be slapped from the guy next to me at the tavern.

 

[jasin]

If you could catch others by surprise if you walked up to them innocently and then attacked them, all the assassins would not bother with all that sneaking business, they'd just walk up on people and front stab them.

QFT.

 

[AnonymousOne]

There is no surprise round.You are aware of your opponent, thus, you are not surprised. There's a big difference between being aware of your opponent and being aware that a creature is you opponent. Only the first matters for surprise.

I completely disagree. What you say may line up with game mechanics, but in no way mirrors the way things would happen.

Here is where things get sticky. Does the PC realize that the NPC is an opponent? I would say no, especially if the PC has been drinking (unless they happen to be a Drunken Master PrC). So hence if you don't think that the NPC across the table from you is an opponent then you are "not aware" of that opponent, a subtle, but distinct difference.

 

[Sejs]

If you could catch others by surprise if you walked up to them innocently and then attacked them, all the assassins would not bother with all that sneaking business, they'd just walk up on people and front stab them.

Hell, I've got an Assassin NPC in my game with one level of Monk - that's pretty much his entire MO in a nutshell. Disguise yourself as somebody inconsequential and harmless, get close to the target, study them for a couple rounds, walk up, snap their neck with your bare hands, leave.

 

[Diomeneus]

a spot check and a reflex save? sounds realistic to me