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D&D 3E/3.5 What do you ban? (3.5)

Eman Resu

First Post
I read that other playing groups had problems with a few classes that were considered broken, all are spell casters (of course). Broken in comparison to a equal level core spell caster (Cleric/Wizard). Being better at something doesnt = broken but some have suggested that the below classes/prst classes are outright banned as they are truly broken. Can you enlighten me as to why they are considered over powered or outright broken.

Ur Priest (cleric/divine)
Plane Shepard (Druid prtg class)
Psion
 

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Eldritch_Lord

Adventurer
Ur Priest (cleric/divine)

It gets a fast casting progression, so you end up with 9th-level spells at 14th level instead of 17th with the earliest entry. It's even worse in theurge builds, where you can be a, for example, wizard 5/ur-priest 2/mystic theurge 8/arcane PrC 5 with both 9th-level arcane casting and 9th-level divine casting.

Plane Shepard (Druid prtg class)

It takes the already-powerful druid and gives them things like automatic metamagic, great summons, new wild shape forms, and other things.


The psion isn't broken, nor is any other psionic class (exception: Spell-to-Power erudite, but that's an ACF). Psionics is less breakable than magic, and all of the psionicists are weaker than similar arcane or divine casters.
 

Sorrowdusk

First Post
I read that other playing groups had problems with a few classes that were considered broken, all are spell casters (of course). Broken in comparison to a equal level core spell caster (Cleric/Wizard). Being better at something doesnt = broken but some have suggested that the below classes/prst classes are outright banned as they are truly broken. Can you enlighten me as to why they are considered over powered or outright broken.

Ur Priest (cleric/divine)
Plane Shepard (Druid prtg class)
Psion

Psion is certainly not broken IMO.

IMC, we decided not to allow the Shepherd PrC on the basis that it continues and improves class features and spell casting of the druid at every level while adding additional abilities.

Also THIS:
What is a Planar Shepard? - Giant in the Playground Forums

As for Ur Priest, I think it mainly has to do with the fact that he can combine spell slots to get higher ones. From what I have heard, his crazy slot combining makes him more powerful than a normal cleric at least at mid levels.
 
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Sorrowdusk

First Post
Does anyone ban multiclassing?

ON A SIDE NOTE: Does anyone ban multiclassing?

IMC as a House Rule, it is restricted in that you must finish a PrC before taking another one. If its a short 5 lvls, you can finish all 5 and then take another PrC. If its 10 lvls, you have to take every single one, before you can select a second PrC to class into-likewise in relation between finishing the second before you can take a third. You can always choose another base class any time you would level up, but you can only have 4 different classes (of any kind) on your character.

You will find that many of these "builds" on the internet require multiple PrCs, and this House Rule curtails this. It also represents that to join a PrC means to dedicate yourself to something special or outside the norm. You are commited to it, before you attempt to join/train with another specialist order or take up some other specialist training.

In addition, IMC all clerics must have a deity, so there is no "cherry pick your own domains" dipping and dapping. Domain combos are limited to what you can get by choosing to follow one of the setting religions. You can have any domain if a god has it, but if 2 domains of power are attractive-you will have to decide which god has gained your devotion. Deities generally have 5 domains each, 2 alignment domains (which are shared with other deities of the same alignment), and 3 domains which are unique to that deity-no other deity has them.
 
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GreyLord

Legend
ON A SIDE NOTE: Does anyone ban multiclassing?

IMC as a House Rule, it is restricted in that you must finish a PrC before taking another one. If its a short 5 lvls, you can finish all 5 and then take another PrC. If its 10 lvls, you have to take every single one, before you can select a second PrC to class into-likewise in relation between finishing the second before you can take a third. You can always choose another base class any time you would level up, but you can only have 4 different classes (of any kind) on your character.

You will find that many of these "builds" on the internet require multiple PrCs, and this House Rule curtails this. It also represents that to join a PrC means to dedicate yourself to something special or outside the norm. You are commited to it, before you attempt to join/train with another specialist order or take up some other specialist training.

In addition, IMC all clerics must have a deity, so there is no "cherry pick your own domains" dipping and dapping. Domain combos are limited to what you can get by choosing to follow one of the setting religions. You can have any domain if a god has it, but if 2 domains of power are attractive-you will have to decide which god has gained your devotion. Deities generally have 5 domains each, 2 alignment domains (which are shared with other deities of the same alignment), and 3 domains which are unique to that deity-no other deity has them.

I don't ban multiclassing...but I do restrict it.

I posted this previously. In our FR games, anything goes.

In other games however, it is not unusual for me to have all players showing what they plan to class into later on upon character creation. From there on out, unless they have a really good reason, they cannot multiclass into something else. IF THEY HAVE A GOOD reason however, ingame or whatever...and it's not for pure munchkinism...I'm pretty persuadable.

However, for Prestige classes it must be planned from, from the start. At that point, they are considered apprentices in that guild/group/select special class that are building their way to become full fledged members.

I may be convinced to allow someone to pick a prestige class they didn't choose at character creation, but they still have to go through an apprenticeship, meaning they must go through the same amount of levels to attain it had they started at first level....building upon their skills and BAB or spell levels as if that was the initial level. AKA...for them and them only the requirements to join go up.

Finally, you are only allowed a MAXIMUM of 3 classes ever...including prestige classes.
 

billd91

Not your screen monkey (he/him) 🇺🇦🇵🇸🏳️‍⚧️
Let's say the party finds itself needing to slay a clan of ogres who have been molesting travellers. Almost always they will do their best to murder the ogres in the most brutal and effective manner possible, and they are supposed to be the good guys having some amount of human feeling and commitment to mercy. How much less reasonable is it for a monster, without mercy, loving bloodshed, and with its life on the line to not do everything in its power to resist the PC's? I mean, these are somewhat stupid selfish creature, and it might be reasonable if their defence was somewhat uncoordinated or if one or more tried to flee at the others expense if the battle was turning against them, but how reasonable and true to the character of the ogres is it for them to hold back and pull their blows? And how reasonable is this when the actual reason for the holding back and pulling the blows is to ensure the death of the ogres? Yes, that is treating the players with kid gloves. I don't see how you think it isn't.

Depends. Would an ogre ever figure out that swinging for the fences all the time means that he strikes out more often? If so, there's a perfectly good reason that he'd eschew maximum power attack in order to better connect with the target and raise his average.

That said, I've go no major beef with the initial issue of reducing 2-handed PA to 1.5x the penalty taken as with normal strength bonuses. I can see why WotC went with 2x rather than introduce round-off, though.
 

Celebrim

Legend
ON A SIDE NOTE: Does anyone ban multiclassing?

No, though there are some restrictions.

1) There are no PrCs. This was a bad idea tacked on at the last minute by Monte that never accomplished what he had intend to accomplish. Monte has a fetish for secret organizations and the intention here was to use mechanics (and the desire for entry into the class) to tie the character more closely to the setting. PrCs are IMO simply the single worst design decision in D20 and they impact the game in a myriad of not so great ways.

In trade off, Feats tend to be more powerful and capable of broader changes than in stock D20 and the base martial classes tend to have more upside. As one of my players put it, "You don't take a PrC in [my game], you become one."

Without PrCs, I don't have to ban particular ones (it would be a long list) or create rules to manage them.

2) Each class has a prerequisite ability score which is usually quite low. For example, you can't be a Hunter unless you have both a 7 Str and 7 Dex. However, in order to qualify for multiclassing you must beat this minimum by 2 for each additional class you have beyond the first. So for example, if you want to take both Hunter and Fighter you have to have at least an 11 Str and 9 Dex. That's just a 'sanity check' rule that has never come into play, but prevents a player from, for example, taking 1 or 2 levels of each class.

3) Favored class rules are strictly enforced. I know alot of people do away with it and I sympathize, This is supposed to be one of the Humans big advantages, and a means of creating a specific flavor in the other races, so I

4) The Champion class, which is my games equivalent of the Paladin, has the standard rule excluding multiclassing once you enter it. However, certain Portfolios (the Champion equivalent of Cleric domains) not only allow free multiclassing with certain other classes but allow half the levels of that class to count as Champion class level for the purposes of spellcasting, spellcasting progression, and class abilities.

Mostly these are 'sanity check' rules designed to keep the available builds constrained in predictable ways. They rarely come up or prevent players from multiclassing, and the number of potential builds is still huge. And, if any player wants to play something that isn't available in the rules and is suitable to the setting, I'm perfectly happy to create feats, domains, portfolios, bloodlines, etc. that help enable it. What I don't do however is create purely mechanical variation simply for its own sake. So many WotC classes always felt to me not as characters you couldn't play until the class came along, but rather particular mechanics you couldn't before have until the class came along. IMO all sorts of different mechanics can be used to capture the flavor of a certain heroic concept. So long as I have some means to get there, I don't necessarily feel the need to offer any particular alternate mechanic (which is usually more about powergaming than it is about characterization). I have very little sympathy for example with the idea that you can't capture the flavor of a particular type of spellcaster unless you have mechanical point buy or free form magic, but I would have alot of sympathy with a player who said, "I want to play a clockwork themed mage, but I don't see alot of clockwork options in the spell list." or "I want to play Dr. Frankenstein, but there don't seem to be any rules for creating low level contructs." or "I want to play a dinosaur rider, what should I do?"

In addition, IMC all clerics must have a deity, so there is no "cherry pick your own domains" dipping and dapping.

I do this too, but in practice since there are '1000 gods' in my setting any time a player comes up with an unusual combo I tend to make up a god on the spot (usually with player input) with the result that 'all clerics must have a deity' ends up being no restriction at all. I've waffled back and forth since reading 'Book of the Righteous' on the merits of going down to a small tightly interwoven pantheon, but still find that 'always free to make a god for the occasion' pays off.
 

ProfessorCirno

Banned
Banned
The problem with banning or restricting multiclassing or PrCs is that the most powerful people that actively need to be curbed back can be full, straight core, 1-20 clerics, druids, wizards, artificers, etc, etc.

PrCs can make some of them more powerful, but multiclassing is typically a terrible idea.

In general, hurting multiclassing hurts the character types that need it to stay afloat.

Also, it pounds down the horrid idea of class = character that I abhor so much.
 

Celebrim

Legend
The problem with banning or restricting multiclassing or PrCs is that the most powerful people that actively need to be curbed back can be full, straight core, 1-20 clerics, druids, wizards, artificers, etc, etc.

Yes, but viewing PrC's as a solution to the disparity in power (at high levels) between non-casters and full casters is a kludge fix with some awful side-effects.

The PrCs that players actually take can be broken down into three types:

1) Full BAB classes that recieve more than one feat equivalent ability every two levels, and/or better saves, skills lists, and skill points than equivalent base classes.
2) Full caster spell progression classes that recieve more than one feat equivalent ability every five levels, and/or better saves, skills lists, and skill points than equivalent base classes.
3) Classes that all full caster spell progression while simulateously providing most of the benefits of some other class. That is, classes intended to fix the spellcaster multiclassing problem.

Each of these can essentially be boiled down to, "Gives you some large benefit compared to the small cost of entry and the small cost of what you give up." and in particular, "Gives you more feat equivalent class abilities than you could get staying in a base class." Used in this manner, all a PrC amounts to is an admission that full spell progression is worth more than a feat every other level, and that - perforce - either the martial classes or the spells or both are badly designed.

The solution isn't PrCs that provide more to martial classes. The solution is go directly to the problem and make sure you have martial classes that provide you more (and to a certain extent, that spells provide you slightly less). The real and direct solution is making sure that martial classes can, as you put it, "stay afloat". PrCs are a kludge fix to that problem with nasty side-effects. They were never intended to do what they were used to do, and they are bad at it. What they produce is a system that requires a high degree of system mastery and the purchase of a large amount of splat books in order to "stay afloat". They also produce what ultimately turns out to be a very narrow and inflexible system because PrC's have very narrow archetypes and usually very narrow progressions with little flexiblity. And they are unbalancing and typically poorly play-tested, forcing the group to rely primarily on social contract to determine what sort of character is permissible.

Also, it pounds down the horrid idea of class = character that I abhor so much.

PrC's are the ultimate "class = character" concept. The whole idea of a PrC is that it encapsulates not just a set mechanics which can be used to model various heroic powers and abilities, but that it also encapsulates with it certain appearances, loyalties, world-view, and even personality. The write ups of published PrC's aren't generic, but rather character defining. They tell you not only what you can, but who you are. This channels what would be wild creativity into very narrow paths primarily chosen for their mechanical benefit. It doesn't get any more "class = character" than a PrC.

In my game, a concept like 'assassin', or 'thief-catcher', or 'swashbuckler', could be some combination of cleric, wizard, sorcerer, rogue, hunter, fighter, explorer, champion, or shaman (and possibly others). I can't tell from the description and I can imagine viable builds from each class and many combinations. In a game with PrC's, concepts like the above of 'beast master' are literally implemented as 'classes' so that your class is your character, rather than your class(es) being simply an approximation of a set of heroic abilities. In a PrC you are an 'assassin' if you have the assassin class, and there is a strong implication that you can't be a 'real' assassin without one. Now sure, options like rogue or hunter (or some combination) might lend themselves more easily to archetypal 'assassins' just as explorer, fighter, or rogue might lend themselves to 'swashbuckler'.

Originally the idea was that you might enter a PrC from a variaty of different initial points, but in practice PrC's are generally written with one prequisite class clearly in mind. You don't get big books of PrC's where any base class is as likely to multiclass with it as any other. You get splat books written narrowly for particular classes with PrC's written specificly for a particular class that narrow that class definition even further. That is the exact opposite of what you want in true multiclassing, which is that multiclassing broadens the already broad possible archetypes.
 

Runestar

First Post
1) There are no PrCs. This was a bad idea tacked on at the last minute by Monte that never accomplished what he had intend to accomplish. Monte has a fetish for secret organizations and the intention here was to use mechanics (and the desire for entry into the class) to tie the character more closely to the setting. PrCs are IMO simply the single worst design decision in D20 and they impact the game in a myriad of not so great ways.

I will have to respectfully disagree.

To me, PRCs represent a very elegant way of allowing players near unbridled freedom to customize their characters as they deem fit. Because the core classes only go so far in letting you flesh out the various character archetypes.

Likewise, I never really bought into that whole "you must be special to take a prc" bunk. For instance, a shadowdancer or assassin is simply a normal rogue who chose to focus more on certain areas at the expense of others. There is really nothing which makes a build with 7-8 classes+prcs any less of a fighter than a straight fighter20, IMO.

I recall once when a player came to gleemax asking for help in statting up his new PC, which was the offspring of a werebear barb and succubus bard. The end result contained lvs in barb, bard, rage mage, spellsword, bear warrior, sublime chord and eldritch knight! Yet amazingly enough, it fit his backstory to a perfect T! :D

So yeah, multiclass all you want, if it helps you roleplay better. :)
 

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