D&D 3E/3.5 What do you ban? (3.5)

[Greg K]

I agree.

Anyway, I ban anything not printed by WotC. Anything Green Ronin, etc, all that crap I completely ban. I ran a game with my group where one of the players decided to screw with me and make a character completely out of the unsanctioned splat books and I tentatively let him run it until he abused mechanics to somehow get Storm Rage at level 6 and continually grow in size category for every creature he killed. I introduced the bad guy early and raped him with Rule 0. No more unsanctioned in my games.

To each their own. I found WOTC 3e DND products, for the most part, to be crap or barely average. From my perspective, the only non-core WOTC books worth owning are the following:
Unearthed Arcana
Fiendish Codex I
Lords of Madness
Heroes of Horror
Stormwrack
Book of Vile Darkness (for the demons and devils, and some spells)
MM2 and Fiend Foli: for many monsters from 1e and 2e
Cityscape web enhancement with the wilderness/urban skill swaps.
Depending upon my mood, Complete Warrior, Complete Arcane, Libris Mortis, and Sandstorm

In contrast, thre are all these great third party products from the 3e era (and I could include more):

Green Ronin
* Cavalier's Handbook: ok not a fan of the class itself (I prefer Hong's Knight adaptation of the OA Samurai), but I'll take the class over the Knight from PHB2 and the rest of the book is really good.
* Psychic's Handbook: Imo, the system for mental powers is muc hbetter than every one of WOTCs Psionics books
* Shaman's Handbook: Imo, the class is much better than WOTC's Spirit Shaman and as, a sourcebook this, and the other Masterclass handbooks are what WOTC's should have been
* Witch's Handbook
* Advanced Bestiary: One of the two best book of templates (the other being
Silverthorne/Goodman's Games's * Deluxe Book of Templates Revised)
* Both Armies of the Abyss (to be fair to WOTC, I also think Fiendish Codex I is really good) and Legions of Hell (you can get these combined in Book of Fiends along with a third book)
* Unholy Warrior's Handbook

Blue Devil Games
* Poisoncraft: alternate rules for poison

Silverthorne/Goodman's Games
* Deluxe Book of Templates Revised

Adamant
* Hot Pursuit
* Hot Pursuit: On Foot
* Corsairs
* Fantasy Occupations: The d20Modern Occupation system for D&D

Atlas
* Crime and Punishment
* Love and War

Bastion/Dragonwing
* Airships
* Alchemy and Herbalists
* Ink and Quill
* Torn Asunder

EN Publishing
* Elements of Magic: Mythic Earth
* Elements of Magic: Revised
* Elements of Magic: Lycian Arcana
* Advanced Guide for Beginners

Expeditious Retreat
* Magical Medieval Society: Western Europe
* Magical Society: Silk Road

Malhavoc
* Book of Iron Might: I"ll take the maneuver system over Bo9S every time.

Monkey God/ Highmoon Studios
* From Stone to Steel: so much better than WOTC's Arms and Equipment book.
* Frost and Fur: so much better than Frostburn

Mystic Eye Games
* Artificer's Handbook: alternate magic item creation system

 

[Dandu]

When did I say anything about obscenity or profanity being the issue here?

You referred to it as being very immature a while ago, and I was using humor to point out that a lot of the stuff normally associated with immaturity is not present in this character, unlike say, a monk who uses his very long penis as a reach weapon.

(Yes, I have actually been at a table where this has happened. No, I did not return.)

The issue is attempting to make play revolve around you by creating a character that is wildly inappropriate to the setting and theme of the game.
That might not be an issue in the game you play, but move characters from the game you play to the game I play (or vica versa) and it might be.

Wait... how is creating a multclassed Dwarf Ranger/Monk attempting to make play revolve around me?

Furthermore, how can you say the character is both wildly inappropriate to the setting and the theme of the game when you acknowledge that, at the same time, the appropriateness depends on the kind of game?

I get that the name "Fistbeard Beardfist" is not for everyone, nor is the idea of a monk hitting people with his beard ala Chuck Norris... but that's pure fluff. Call the dwarf "Durand Macenand IV" if you want, and call him a drunken boxer. Mechanically, he is the same character.

Do you have an issue with Durand Macehand IV, Dwarf delver and master of unarmed combat, who fights to keep the dwarf kingdoms of the Underdark free from the drow, and rid the dwarven lands above ground form the scourge of the orcish horde?

I know Shakespeare, and you sir are no Shakespeare. You're not even a Brian Helgeland, which would at least be closer to target. And I'm going to stop there, because I'm really tempted to actually respond in kind and not half in jest.

And you, sir, are no Ghandi, though that does not mean you are a bad person.

 

[Greg K]

The same guy who made that character for my game made a "Blue mage," for those who don't know, it's a sex mage, for my friend's game he DM'ed with the same group. GR again, and he just completely derailed the game with stupid feats and mechanics from a 3PP. .

Which Green Ronin book is the "blue mage" from? It sounds more like something out of Book of Erotic Fantasy by Valar productions (and written by someone that worked for WOTC).

Btw, I agree about not letting in anything that you have not seen. However, I, personally, don't limit it to third parties.

 

[Greg K]

I ran a game with my group where one of the players decided to screw with me and make a character completely out of the unsanctioned splat books and I tentatively let him run it until he abused mechanics to somehow get Storm Rage at level 6 and continually grow in size category for every creature he killed. I introduced the bad guy early and raped him with Rule 0. No more unsanctioned in my games.

Wait, someone abused the menchanics? So, the player was a dick! It's a player problem not a third party problem. It's just like people trying to bring Pun Pun and many other things from WOTC's Char Ops forums into actual games and claim its fine. Just because something is possible and can be exploited, doesn't stop it from being a dick move. There is a thing called spirit of the rules.

As for Rule 0, nice move! Serves the idiot right. Personally, in my campaign, it would never have gotten the far. If he showed up with material I do not allow, he would have been told to build a new character. Of course, I work with players during character creation.

1. I provide them a list of acceptable sources, ban lists, and house rules.
2. I also provide them with information on the cultures, deities, and, if any, class restrictions and/or class variant restrictions for a culture or organization.
3. Using the guidlines, they provide me with concept and some background ideas.
4. I suggest tweaks (if needed) to ground it in the setting.
5. They build the character mechanically.
6. I review it and accept it or send it back for changes (to date, I never had to tell someone to recreate the character from the ground up).

 

[Thanee]

I also do not use/allow 3rd party stuff (except on very much single occasions).

It is not a matter of balance, really, but more about keeping things on a level.

There is just way too much of that stuff out there.

Working with mostly everything (pretty much all except psionics and some obscure stuff) from WotC (with all its flaws) is really more than enough.

If there are specific problem areas, they are fixed via house rule.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Greg K]

That's a sound policy in my opinion. Failing or not on my part, I couldnt' even keep up with all the WotC options - either economicly (buy al l those books) or mentally (memorize all those class entries). And I did want to use the GR material, because while there was alot of poorly thought out material out there, GR in particular I thought was doing more flavorful and interesting stuff than WotC was.

Agreed.

a) From the core, certain archetypes - swashbuckler, champion of evil, arcane necromancer, military leader, urban tracker, etc. - simply lack a good mechanical representation.
b) Multiclassing doesn't really work as a means of hybridizing a spellcasting class.
c) From the core, full spellcasters complete outstrip the power of the other classes beginning around 12th level (some say even sooner, and I feel no need to quibble).

Agreed. I liked 0/0 level multiclassing in 3.0 DMG, but better, imo, using class variants (PHB customizing a character, tailored spell lists from DMG) or new base classes (e.g., AEG's Myrmidon as the basis for a fighter/wizard, GR's Psychic, Shaman and Witch).

Reasons Why PrCs Don't Work as Solutions

I tend to like PrCs only for certain organizations (e.g. secret societies, and elite organizations). Otherwise too much hoop jumping when many concepts covered by PrCs should be playable at first level.

 

[Borthos]

Wait, someone abused the menchanics? So, the player was a dick! It's a player problem not a third party problem. It's just like people trying to bring Pun Pun and many other things from WOTC's Char Ops forums into actual games and claim its fine. Just because something is possible and can be exploited, doesn't stop it from being a dick move. There is a thing called spirit of the rules.

As for Rule 0, nice move! Serves the idiot right. Personally, in my campaign, it would never have gotten the far. If he showed up with material I do not allow, he would have been told to build a new character.

Here's the thing though, the only core WotC material he used was the race, human. He used everything out of Nymphology and one other book i can't remember the name of. Absolutely nothing core at all, so it was both a 3PP and a player problem IMO.

Thank you for the Rule 0 comment. And he was the reason I ban those products. Before then, I've never seen or heard of those books. Now I ban them.

Which Green Ronin book is the "blue mage" from? It sounds more like something out of Book of Erotic Fantasy by Valar productions (and written by someone that worked for WOTC).

From the Nymphology: Blue Magic. Blue magic might not be in the title, but Nymphology is the title. It's not like the BoEF, and it's written by Mongoose Publishing

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

You referred to it as being very immature a while ago, and I was using humor to point out that a lot of the stuff normally associated with immaturity is not present in this character, unlike say, a monk who uses his very long penis as a reach weapon.

(Yes, I have actually been at a table where this has happened. No, I did not return.)

Was this monk a warshaper by any chance?

It'd be funny if he could reach monk 16 / warshaper 3, then not only does it get reach, it can break steel!

...Guess I'm a bad person for liking that. ...And for thinking about how it could combine with Blood Wind or Ring the Golden Bell.

 

[Celebrim]

From the Nymphology: Blue Magic. Blue magic might not be in the title, but Nymphology is the title. It's not like the BoEF, and it's written by Mongoose Publishing

Not all third party material is created equal. Mongoose had some occasionally minable ideas, but their material is much spottier and much more likely to have balance issues than Green Ronin. In fact, Mongoose's D20 line is something of a by word for 'Munchkin'.

Greg K's list is really good. There are a couple things by AEG that should be on it, and a few things by WotC that might should not be, but most of that is definately worth looking at.

 

[Greg K]

Not all third party material is created equal. Mongoose had some occasionally minable ideas, but their material is much spottier and much more likely to have balance issues than Green Ronin. In fact, Mongoose's D20 line is something of a by word for 'Munchkin'.

Mongoose does take a lot of flak for some of their early stuff, but WOTC class books had their own problems. They did have some well reviewed stuff. Quintessential Sorcerer, which got good reviews, takes the heat for bad binding. I do like, but down own- Quintessential Druid and Quintessential Monk. Mearl's Quintessential Rogue and Quintessential Wizard were not too bad, but, imo, dry as hell to read so I didn't buy them either- always pushed them farther down the list for other things.

Greg K's list is really good. There are a couple things by AEG that should be on it, and a few things by WotC that might should not be, but most of that is definately worth looking at.

Thanks. I agree about AEG. Toolbox (or the more recent Ultimate Toolbox) is a must for a DM, in my opinion. I also like Mercenaries for the Myrmidon (despite hating the class name). Magic and Wilds are not bad either and, definitely, worth a look.

As for WOTC supplements, I should have pointed out the following about the WOTC books: Only Unearthed Arcana and Fiendish Codex I consider to be top tier. The next step down is Stormwrack, Lords of Madness, and Heroes of Horror. Another step down is the rest of my main WOTC list with MM2 and Fiend Folio being there for many monsters that I wanted in the main book. Some other books have a few things I like, but not enough to buy the actual book. However, as I wrote, I am, in general, not a fan of WOTC's 3e supplements.