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D&D 3E/3.5 What do you ban? (3.5)

Ok. I don't think that a barren naked appeal to authority like that is even remotely a logical point, but oh well. You can believe whatever you like; nonetheless, my rules - valid or invalid - and the reasoning behind them aren't going to change on account of that ... argument... such as it is.
It is not an appeal to authority. You clearly misunderstand my statement. I was simply stating that the ToB mechanic of allowing martial adepts to swap out maneuvers is no worse than the PHB2 retraining rules which allow fighters to replace feats.

Hyperbole won't save you now.

Much as its 4e successor, ToB:Bo9S makes little attempt to even bother explaining the system as something existing in game world. Whenever some question about why the rules work as they do arises, the writer simply explains it openly in terms of game balance and interest. Simulationist concerns like, "How does real fencing work?" are pretty far from the minds of the writers. This is not an attempt at realism.
Neither was the 3.5 fighter. The Combat Form feat Combat Awareness grants the ability to know the hit point total of each adjacent enemy and ally. It also grants Blindsense 5ft if the user has 3 or more Combat Form feats. Combat Vigor grants fast healing, and Combat Stability enables a stance which gives +4 to resist combat maneuvers.

There are also feats that gives your weapons the ability to become aligned (eg. Evil and Chaotic for Demonsworn Knight), immolate your fists (conveniently named Fiery Fist), cloak yourself in flame (Fiery Ki Defense), stun opponents (Stunning Fist, and limited in times/day to boot), stun people next to those you stun (seriously, wtf?) paralyze opponents (Freeze the Lifeblood), inflict stat damage (Rattlesnake Strike) and grant fighting styles (eg. Great Stag Berserker, Dancing Blade)


Mind you, these are all taken from the list of Fighter Bonus Feats.

Do you think that the ToB was really "accepted in the game" much less a priori accepted in the game? With the possible exception of BoVD, did WotC release a more contriversial supplement than ToB?
Complete Psionic.
 
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Complete Psionic was intended to be the errata to the Expanded Psionic Handbook. It nerfed things that didn't need to be nerfed, didn't nerf things that need to be nerfed, and was a poorly edited product whose problems were never errata'd.
 
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I just don't like the manuever system's in game flavor, which is <snip> gamist <snip>.

It is a game, isn't it? Games have mechanics. If it doesn't have mechanics, you're back on the playground playing cops and robbers yelling "I shot you!" "Nuh uh!" "Uh huh!"

What makes one amount of gamism better than others? Worse?
 

Complete Psionic was intended to be the errata to the Expanded Psionic Handbook. It nerfed things that didn't need to be nerfed, didn't nerf things that need to be nerfed, and was a poorly edited product whose problems were never errata'd.

Ah, so it's more along the lines of rules issues than actual problems with the system itself. Thank you.
 

It is a game, isn't it? Games have mechanics. If it doesn't have mechanics, you're back on the playground playing cops and robbers yelling "I shot you!" "Nuh uh!" "Uh huh!"

What makes one amount of gamism better than others? Worse?

Many people enjoy realism in a world. It makes it easier to relate to, which makes it easier to accept the setting in-game, which means you're less likely to feel separated from your character, which means it's a lot easier to roleplay.

Mechanics are necessary, yes. When they interrupt realism too much, it often leads to people getting confused. In my opinion, it's best if a game focuses on one appeal or another (gamist versus realism), otherwise you have people questioning things in the system.

Full plate takes 4 minutes to don, and you need someone assisting you to do it, or it's considered to be donned hastily. It's not really a gamist issue, since if you were attacked while not wearing your armor, then 4 minutes it about as bad as 1 minute. From a realism standpoint, it makes a difference, which I believe was the intent.

Then players begin to ask questions based on that perception of realism. Why can I only do this special use of a skill or combat maneuver from this feat when I get the particular feat? Why can't I do it in general if I have the skill at a high enough bonus? Why does a ladder cost less than a 10 foot pole?

The designers, in an attempt at balance between the classes, placed a lot of understandable gamist restrictions on the game. Why does a masterwork dagger cost nearly as much as a masterwork greatsword? Because wealth is factored into character power in D&D. That's why the economy is so wrecked. That's why there's no real enforced mechanics in pricing of objects, magic items, houses, etc.

4th edition catered to the gamist crowd. When houseruling 3.5, I prefer to cater to realism crowd. This usually means bringing casters more in line with melee, rather than bringing melee up to casters. It's also why, in my campaign, I've completely reworked the Craft skill, and imposed an entirely new economic model, based on a variety of factors, from size of objects to hardness to DC.

Of course, my campaign got so heavily houseruled that while it is still d20 based, it's entirely different from D&D, and I've tried to cut as many ties to D&D as possible (no gods from D&D, new unique setting, some unique races, entirely new Racial traits on races [along with Societal traits, National traits, and Regional traits], entirely new planes (with none of the old planes), no classes, self-created point-buy system for special abilities, new magic system to capture magic in a unique and versatile way, etc.). With the above knowledge, you can safely assume that my personal stakes in D&D have dropped significantly.

What we're mainly seeing in this ongoing debate is people who want to bring spellcasters more in line with melee (in general to enhance realism in the world), and people who want to bring melee more in line with spellcasters (to enhance their game and make it more enjoyable, since roleplaying is not entirely dependent on realism). It seems clear cut enough to me.
 

It is not an appeal to authority. You clearly misunderstand my statement. I was simply stating that the ToB mechanic of allowing martial adepts to swap out maneuvers is no worse than the PHB2 retraining rules which allow fighters to replace feats.

Ok, I agree. There is someone around here whose signature is, "If I say I don't like something, it's no defense of that thing to say something else is just like it. I probably dislike that to, I just haven't got around to talking about it."

I think that statement is quite appropriate at this juncture.

Neither was the 3.5 fighter. The Combat Form feat Combat Awareness grants the ability to know the hit point total of each adjacent enemy and ally. It also grants Blindsense 5ft if the user has 3 or more Combat Form feats. Combat Vigor grants fast healing, and Combat Stability enables a stance which gives +4 to resist combat maneuvers.

There are also feats that gives your weapons the ability to become aligned (eg. Evil and Chaotic for Demonsworn Knight), immolate your fists (conveniently named Fiery Fist), cloak yourself in flame (Fiery Ki Defense), stun opponents (Stunning Fist, and limited in times/day to boot), stun people next to those you stun (seriously, wtf?) paralyze opponents (Freeze the Lifeblood), inflict stat damage (Rattlesnake Strike) and grant fighting styles (eg. Great Stag Berserker, Dancing Blade)

Given what I've already said, what do you think the chances that any of those non-core feats are available in my house rules?

Granted, I have a feat called 'Reckless Charge' that does the same thing as 'Great Stag Berserker' and which I think actually predates it, but really, all it does is change a charge in quality not in kind. The possessor of the feat not only has the bravery to charge in a reckless and suicidal way (which anyone can do) but has the skill to get some benefit from it. Therefore, that idea is within the space I've previously said feats ought to define feats.

Determining how injured someone is shouldn't require a feat. That's an application of the heal skill (noticing someone has a wound would be spot) available untrained, and which can be hurried (free action). I hate among other things therefore how 'Combat Awareness' implies that you need a feat to determine how seriously injured someone is. Now, you might could have a feat which made you better at evaluating injuries, but it would have to compete hard with Skill Focus (+3 to the heal skill) to be considered worth 'publishing'. Of course, you could also use the Tactics skill to ask just about any question about your combat situation and get an answer ('Does this opponent have 'Combat Reflexes'?

I hate the flavor in 'Combat Stability' which strikes me as coming from those martial arts that believe in a magically rooted stance, but I have a feat called 'Countermoves' which says simply, you gain a +5 bonus to resist any combat manuever without explaining the details of how that is done (thereby leaving it up to the individual DM or circumstance). Again, it's not power level that I have a problem with, as I don't think there are enough really good feats. Most of the rest of those you cite are 'monk' feats, and I don't even have monks in my game. Care to guess why not?
 
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So, basically, there is no point in having this discussion here. Your answer to everything is "your arguement is invalid because I houserule everything." This is why internet debates usually try to stay as close to RAW as possible...its the only common ground to stand on. Everything else is "I shot you" "Nuh uhh, I have a houserule".

Don't you already have a thread for discussing your houserules? Can we go back to the topic of the thread?
 

So, basically, there is no point in having this discussion here. Your answer to everything is "your arguement is invalid because I houserule everything."

I see his answer on topic. The question is "Why do you ban things in 3.5 ?" and, at its core, the answer given is that certain mechanics either do not represent what he want or in a manner he want.
 


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