What Do You Mean By "Fun" In Your RPG?

When someone says a game is "fun," you probably don’t really know what they mean, and maybe they don’t, either. Until you recognize that what's fun for you isn't necessarily fun for every game player, you cannot be a good GM.


It’s obvious that what’s fun to a serious Chess player is not the same as what’s fun to a serious D&Der. What’s fun for an Apples to Apples player is very different from fun for a Diplomacy or Britannia player.

Some people have identified different kinds of fun or enjoyment in games, and the most well-known of these is “8 Kinds of Fun” by Marc LeBlanc.


  • Sensation/Game as sense-pleasure
  • Fantasy/Game as make-believe
  • Narrative/Game as unfolding story
  • Challenge/Game as obstacle course
  • Fellowship/Game as social framework
  • Discovery/Game as uncharted territory
  • Expression/Game as soap box
  • Submission/Game as mindless pastime

You can see that some of these are in some RPGs and not in others, but most RPG rules permit most of these kinds of fun if the GM tries to provide it. When you're planning a campaign (or designing an RPG ruleset, or writing an RPG setting) ask yourself which kinds of fun your target audience likes, and try to incorporate them into your work. For example, Discovery is obvious as many RPGs have a considerable exploration segment. RPGs usually offer Fellowship well, by their co-operative nature. Campaigns that are games (where you can fail) and not playgrounds (where there is no failure) are often Challenging Obstacle Courses. Some campaigns are big Puzzles, with lots of puzzles in each adventure.

I might prefer to call narrative Story because to me narrative (an account of what happens) is always in a game, but not always a good story. Some campaigns emphasize stories and some don't. Sometimes a GM imposes a story on the game, other GMs let the players write their own story, that is, create a narrative that’s interesting and original to them.

Many campaigns encourage self-Expression, most are about Fantasy (in the sense of something outside the real world).

Submission (time-killing) is not unusual in RPGs, though less in tabletop than video. The least common of the “8 Kinds” is Sensation, because so much of an RPG takes place in the minds of the players. On the other hand, in LARPs sensation is a major aspect.

Another point of view is Nicole Lazzaro's Four Keys to Fun that create powerful emotions:


  • Hard Fun: Fiero – in the moment personal triumph over adversity (Goals, obstacles, strategies)
  • Easy Fun: Curiosity (Exploration, Fantasy, Creativity)
  • Serious Fun: Relaxation and excitement (Repetition, rhythm, collection)
  • People Fun: Amusement (Communicate, Cooperate, Compete)

While not the same as LeBlanc’s, you can see lots of crossover. I’m not sure why she chose “serious” for category 3, but I can’t immediately think of an alternative.

I’m sure we can come up with other kinds of fun that may appeal to smaller groups. For example, I like to see how a game is structured, how designers accomplish their goals. I like co-operation, but against human opposition (as in RPGs), not so much against simple programmed opposition via cards (as in tabletop co-op board and card games).

Larger groups, too: we can suppose that many video game players have fun seeing depictions of violent death (often in slow motion, with gore), which are very common in AAA video games, and which we only imagine in tabletop games. Another example, some video gamers are so wedded to graphics that they cannot enjoy a game without photo-realistic visuals.

Perhaps you can suggest more?

contributed by Lewis Pulsipher
 

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Lewis Pulsipher

Lewis Pulsipher

Dragon, White Dwarf, Fiend Folio

Jhaelen

First Post
While I haven't thought about it in such terms yet, except subconsciously, I feel that neither method of categorization is entirely accurate.
I think I prefer pen & paper RPGs over all other kinds of games because they check all the boxes, with the exception of a 'mindless pastime'.

That last category (Submission) is a strange beast because it's in many ways the opposite of what I normally seek in a game. I suppose this is what's covered by 'Serious Fun' in Nicole Lazarro's 4 Keys? If so, that's really a weird name for that key. Still, there's a big market for games that focus on providing this kind of fun: Almost all mobile games cover this category. I also play some of them when I have a few minutes of time to kill. But if I'm seeking a relaxing pastime for longer periods I don't really look to games. I vastly prefer watching tv shows or movies or read a novel.
 

DM Howard

Explorer
While I haven't thought about it in such terms yet, except subconsciously, I feel that neither method of categorization is entirely accurate.
I think I prefer pen & paper RPGs over all other kinds of games because they check all the boxes, with the exception of a 'mindless pastime'.

That last category (Submission) is a strange beast because it's in many ways the opposite of what I normally seek in a game. I suppose this is what's covered by 'Serious Fun' in Nicole Lazarro's 4 Keys? If so, that's really a weird name for that key. Still, there's a big market for games that focus on providing this kind of fun: Almost all mobile games cover this category. I also play some of them when I have a few minutes of time to kill. But if I'm seeking a relaxing pastime for longer periods I don't really look to games. I vastly prefer watching tv shows or movies or read a novel.

I agree with you, Jhaelen, if I am going to be playing D&D is isn't for a passive or "mindless pastime" experience. There will be stretches where I almost have to force myself to read the next part of an adventure or prep the next game, not because I don't enjoy it but because it is far from a passive experience. Maybe for some players the passive and/or mindless pastime holds water?
 

Some players just want to show up, roll some dice, and kill some monsters. They don’t pipe up when people are talking about what to do next, they don’t really role-play. I feel like that’s selling themselves short on the experience, but so be it. That’s about as close to a passive experience as I’ve seen in gaming.

Maybe for some players the passive and/or mindless pastime holds water?
 

Stacie GmrGrl

Adventurer
The purpose of knowing the 8 Kinds of Fun is to recognize that all players are all 8 Kinds... Its just that we all have them in a subconscious different order.

From this we can recognize that no two people really experience "Fun" in the same way.

This is really why all the games that say if you're having fun you're doing it right isn't exactly correct. The word "Fun" is just way too subjective to be used as a blanket statement to represent all people.

I don't play for fun. I play for the Experience of being Creative, of enjoying the Fantasy of role-playing, to enjoy the Challenge of using game mechanics and seeing how the Story evolves from everybody's participation.

Using "Fun" to try and represent all this is pure falacy.
 

EzekielRaiden

Follower of the Way
It's complex, for me, when playing a TTRPG. I like grappling with systems and crunch...but I also like telling an awesome story with loads of so-called "fluffy" details. I like having the option to talk my way through most conflicts...but also being able to crack skulls when I need to. In some ways, I'm both highly attached to specific fluff, yet in other ways I can work around nearly anything. I hate it when the choices I've made about how I build my characters simply don't matter, but I also hate it when I have to plan to the sixth decimal place before I even get to session 0.

So...yeah. It's a hairball.

Using "Fun" to try and represent all this is pure falacy.


"Fallacy" seems like a very strong word, here. I think it would be more accurate to say that subsuming all of this into the single word "fun" makes the word nearly useless. It's one of the mixed blessings of English. As a highly analytic language (read: we break things down into small, single words, with minimal inflection, relying on word order), English tends to favor high-concept words that are then narrowed down by circumlocution or adjectives. E.g. unlike in medical terminology, common English does not have individual words for glioblastoma vs. melanoma vs. osteosarcoma: we instead speak of brain cancer or skin cancer or bone cancer; or unlike ancient Greek, which had numerous terms for the affectionate relationships between humans, English speaks of love as an over-arching thing, within which one may find particular flavors like "platonic" or "familial."

To cut my blathering shorter: I just mean that, while I agree that people are usually using the over-arching category "fun" incorrectly, that doesn't mean that it is inherently incorrect to use it. There may be reasons to do so, sometimes, just as there are reasons *not* to do so sometimes.
 
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Laurefindel

Legend
Maybe for some players the passive and/or mindless pastime holds water?

I don't think anyone uses the hobby as a mindless pastime around the table, but I could see some rpg-related activities filling that category; such as painting a bunch of figurines, or making characters just for the heck of it and killing time. I know I sometimes go back to prior edition books/adventures/supplement, looking at the art, how they ruled this and that back then out of curiosity/nostalgia, just because I don't want to do something too stimulating at the moment.
 

Gradine

The Elephant in the Room (she/they)
Submission (Extra Credits uses the term "Abnegation" which I prefer) in TTRPGs is basically the style of play that the Munchkin card game riffs off of; kick down the door, kill the monsters, steal the loot. TTRPGs do this with fairly straightforward dungeon crawls; Orcs and Trolls and Ogres in discrete rooms that aren't especially difficult to navigate. "Beer and pretzels" play, as it were. Most video game and computer RPGs add this with grinding (either for EXP or loot).

Sensation is actually quite common in TTRPGs and actually probably accounts for a decent chunk of the bitterness over D&D 4e. They involve everything from figurines and tokens and models on tactical maps to handouts like maps and letters. 4e's emphasis on tactical maps and figures and exact distances in particular unsettled quite a few players for whom Sensation matters little and found them to be an unnecessary money and time sink, for instance (as I recall, this also happened a bit with 3rd edition). Heck, even the mere act of rolling dice can trigger Sensation (the feel in your hand, the sound of them hitting the table, watching as they teeter between two very different outcomes). If the idea of a "diceless RPG" sends shivers down your spine you're probably a player who highly values Sensation.
 

Von Ether

Legend
I might prefer to call narrative Story because to me narrative (an account of what happens) is always in a game, but not always a good story. Some campaigns emphasize stories and some don't. Sometimes a GM imposes a story on the game, other GMs let the players write their own story, that is, create a narrative that’s interesting and original to them.

For me, there's two type of stories in RPGs. The constructed story, which can range for "Why are we here adventuring " to grand story arcs and PCs or NPCs. who feel like family.

The other is the "sport-style" story. This is where the story comes more from the players and their PCs successes and failures when interacting with the rules and taking chances. Much like how the drama around actual sporting events in not just the collection of points by the winning team, but the history of the teams and their players and how that impacts the game at hand.

Lots of sandbox games and OSR stuff seems predicated on this. It's less about Ragnor the dwarf (Bob's PC) finding his lost love, but more about how Bob's PC, Ragnor II, died due to failing his climb check and fell into a Roc nest while Bob's PC, Ragnor III, scored the crit that saved the game (and game world) when he should have died.

You can still have strokes of luck and unluck in a constructed narrative game and you can still have tales of revenge in a sports-style story, but those tend to be icing on the cake as compared to the focus.

While not the same as LeBlanc’s, you can see lots of crossover. I’m not sure why she chose “serious” for category 3, but I can’t immediately think of an alternative.
Committed fun? For CRPGs this would be similar to grinding. You do a thing that offers some mental stimulation, but overall isn't demanding. You can just get into the zone and these lower grade mental tasks keep you busy enough to shut off other thoughts in your head For most people who like to just drive, it's sort of the same thing, I suppose.
 
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