D&D 5E What do you think of Fizban's races, subclasses feats and spells?

[NaturalZero]

I've been really going back and forth on the nerf to the damage for the breath weapon. Because I agree with you. 1d10 is worse than even 1d8+3 which you should easily be able to do against a single target.

But then I remind myself it is an AOE.

But then I remind myself it is save for half

But then I remind myself it is guaranteed damage.

But it could easily be 1 point of damage.


I think it would be fine to keep the original scaling, starting at 2d8. But the use of it really fluctuates with how many weak enemies you can line up in the breath. Because frankly, 5 hp damage to two enemies with 60+ hp isn't usually very effective, but 5 damage to three enemies with 10 hp is devasting.

Its certainly not completely useless and I did spam it once in the campaign against enemies hiding in fog. Honestly, I sort of wish it was a bonus action. There a lot of bonus actions in the game that it competes with, and that sucks, but if I'm a caster I almost never want to use it as an action and if I'm a fighter I'd rather smack something for 2d6 + 5 + superiority dice or hex or GWM or a rune knight d6. If it were a bonus action I might be tempted to actually use it at some point.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Remind yourself that if you have the extra attack feature you can use it twice in one turn, so a 5th level fighter could do 4d10.

Remind yourself that 1 point of guaranteed damage is enough to force a caster to make a concentration check, or prevent a troll regenerating.

Well, I'm looking at this for levels 1 - 4 mostly, which means that if you use it twice on one turn (which it is debatable if you can, because it does say "replace one attack") you've used all of it for the day. At level 5 you can do 4d10 by using 2/3 of your uses, but also... well, what does that work out to?

2d10 is 11 on average, with a successful save this could be 6 damage, so you are looking at around 12 damage? I'm not saying it is nothing, but if you just used the attack action, you could have done 2d8+10 which is 19 damage. So, 4d10 sounds like a lot, but it really isn't a lot of damage.

Forcing a caster to make a concentration check? Sure, but that's a DC 10 check and if you hit them with other attacks you have the same result. And are you really going to have multiple casters with multiple concentration effects to make the AOE worth it? I'm not sure.

Regeneration shut down is even more niche. Firstly, you need to have the correct damage type. Which is going to depend on the creature, but off the top of my head the only types that shut down resistance are fire, acid and radiant. Which makes it 6/15 choices. That's a 40% chance of having the correct damage type, and 3 of those are fire, the most commonly resisted element, counterbalances the usefulness.

But, even more debatable. Regeneration shut down only needs a single instance of that damage per round. So, granted, if you have a Dragonborn with fire breath they might be able to shut down the regeneration of three trolls for a round... but if the party has access to fire damage, that could have likely happened anyways. And just having fire bolt to double tap the bodies can be enough, because while troll's do regenerate, they don't regenerate enough to overcome focus fire. Generally, I've found that regenerating enemies might maybe get an extra turn if the players are spreading the damage, but it certainly isn't bad enough to make it a selling point on a racial ability.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Its certainly not completely useless and I did spam it once in the campaign against enemies hiding in fog. Honestly, I sort of wish it was a bonus action. There a lot of bonus actions in the game that it competes with, and that sucks, but if I'm a caster I almost never want to use it as an action and if I'm a fighter I'd rather smack something for 2d6 + 5 + superiority dice or hex or GWM or a rune knight d6. If it were a bonus action I might be tempted to actually use it at some point.

I could see that. I like it as part of the attack action, because bonus actions are too crowded usually, but I do think the damage certainly needs to be more competitive than 1d10 per tier

 

[Paul Farquhar]

Well, I'm looking at this for levels 1 - 4 mostly

Which is specifically when it's weakest. The whole reason for the change is so it levels better. Who cares if it sucks for the first 2 sessions of a 3 year campaign?

4d10 sounds like a lot, but it really isn't a lot of damage.

It is when you hit 6 enemies with it.

It is when you are fighting an enemy with resistance to weapons, or regeneration, or whatever.

It's situational, sometimes it's better to hit something with your sword, this is by design. It's not meant to be always better.

 

[Kurotowa]

Ranger sub fails to deliver on what IMO the vast majority of ppl who would want it actually want from it, which is flying on the back of a dragon at a level lower than when the campaign ends. Might as well just play a Paladin and choose a drake and then dragonell as your steed/greater steed.

Well, that does seem to be what's fueling the strong dichotomy of reactions to the subclass. For all the people who wanted a Dragonrider subclass... it isn't. You don't get a real dragon, your abilities don't fit well with mounted combat, and you can't fly until late level. So those people have a strongly negative reaction to it.

On the other hand, for those of us who evaluate the Drakewarden on the merits of what it tries to be, I think it works well. And what it's trying to be is a Beast Master Ranger with a specialized variant companion that's smarter and has dragon-themed aesthetics and powers. At that goal it seems like a decent package. Your drake is smart without being dragon-smart, you unlock upgrades like wings and a breath weapon, and as you level up it goes from small and scrappy to Clifford huge.

I agree that someone who wants to play a Dragonrider is probably better off working from the foundation of a Paladin PC. They're the class with the most emphasis on mounted combat. But I for one am interested in playing a Drakewarden because I think a Ranger with a drake companion is cool in its own right, even if it isn't a Dragonrider.

 

[ECMO3]

Well, I'm looking at this for levels 1 - 4 mostly, which means that if you use it twice on one turn (which it is debatable if you can, because it does say "replace one attack") you've used all of it for the day. At level 5 you can do 4d10 by using 2/3 of your uses, but also... well, what does that work out to?

You can only make 1 attack at level 1-4 anyway.

I think the best use of the new breath weapon rules is to combine them with the old Dragon Fear half feat from XGE. The new Dragonborn race mechanics change the Dragon Fear feat from being a lower tier feat to being one of the best feats on par with things like Fey Touched.

Under the old PHB Dragonborn the feat is only usable once per short rest and as a full action which is pretty "Meh"

Now you can cause all enemies within 30' to be frightened in place of only one attack and you can do it PB times a day (PB+1 for metallics). That is pretty awesome.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Which is specifically when it's weakest. The whole reason for the change is so it levels better. Who cares if it sucks for the first 2 sessions of a 3 year campaign?

It is also the time when the monster's are weakest, and a 7 damage AOE could be a first action victory.

Additionally, if you are going from level 1 to level 5 in two sessions, I doubt you are going to be able to keep going for 3 years unless you are having some long breaks between the sessions.

It is when you hit 6 enemies with it.

You are never going to hit 6 enemies with a 30 ft line, and the most I've ever seen hit by a 15 ft cone is 3-4. But, sure, in a white room you could say that 4d10 in a 30 ft line is worth 480 damage because you could have 6 enemies that all have vulnerability, fail their saves, and you roll max damage. But, realistically, that isn't a situation that is actually going to happen.

It is when you are fighting an enemy with resistance to weapons, or regeneration, or whatever.

As I pointed out, regeneration isn't shut down by all damage types. Also, having 3 instances of 4d10 per day isn't going to help much in a fight where your weapons are resisted compared to having a cantrip that can be used all day long.

Also, don't conveniently forget how many creatures have elemental resistances that lower the value of the damage. Far more than have physical resistances.

It's situational, sometimes it's better to hit something with your sword, this is by design. It's not meant to be always better.

Of course is it situational. That's my entire point, that's why I go back and forth on it. It can be useful, but the situations where it isn't quite as useful are big enough and often enough I don't think increasing the damage is going to make them OP.

 

[Chaosmancer]

You can only make 1 attack at level 1-4 anyway.

I think the best use of the new breath weapon rules is to combine them with the old Dragon Fear half feat from XGE. The new Dragonborn race mechanics change the Dragon Fear feat from being a lower tier feat to being one of the best feats on par with things like Fey Touched.

Under the old PHB Dragonborn the feat is only usable once per short rest and as a full action which is pretty "Meh"

Now you can cause all enemies within 30' to be frightened in place of only one attack and you can do it PB times a day (PB+1 for metallics). That is pretty awesome.

Agreed, that makes it a much better feat.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

Additionally, if you are going from level 1 to level 5 in two sessions, I doubt you are going to be able to keep going for 3 years unless you are having some long breaks between the sessions.

I'm speaking from experience, so you are just wrong about that.

Many games, and WotC products, go through the fist couple of training wheels levels quickly. The House of Lament in VGR takes PCs from 1st to 3rd level in about 3 hours, then 4th at the end, after another 2-3 hours play.

You are never going to hit 6 enemies with a 30 ft line

"The squad of skeletons marches down the passage towards you."

I've seen 12 enemies taken out by a lightning bolt, although you are more likely to get more targets in a cone. Whatever, so long as you can hit more than one, it's better than using your sword. If you have one enemy, use your sword, that's what "situational" means.

As I pointed out, regeneration isn't shut down by all damage types.

Here is a tip: don't choose lightning or poison breath. Not all damage types are equal.

having 3 instances of 4d10 per day isn't going to help much in a fight where your weapons are resisted compared to having a cantrip that can be used all day long.

No DM is going to have you fight damage resistant enemies all day long. The fighters would get really really pissed off. You are going to want to use your breath weapon several times in the boss fight, and not at all against trash mobs (unless you are in a position to vaporise a small army), which is why PB per long rest is so much better than once per short rest.

 

[Chaosmancer]

I'm speaking from experience, so you are just wrong about that.

Many games, and WotC products, go through the fist couple of training wheels levels quickly. The House of Lament in VGR takes PCs from 1st to 3rd level in about 3 hours, then 4th at the end, after another 2-3 hours play.

Can we at least acknowledge that your expeirence is abnormal? Because I've been in a lot of games where level 1 took a session, level two took a session, level three took two sessions, level four took two sessions, and level five took three. Which is 9 sessions. Not two. I don't think I have even heard about people going from level 1 to level 5 in two sessions before, if you are going to do that, just start at level 3.

"The squad of skeletons marches down the passage towards you."

I've seen 12 enemies taken out by a lightning bolt, although you are more likely to get more targets in a cone. Whatever, so long as you can hit more than one, it's better than using your sword. If you have one enemy, use your sword, that's what "situational" means.

And I once saw 50 enemies taken out by a lightning bolt (skeletons funnily enough) but it was a massively contrived scenario. Also, there is a bit of a difference between a 100 foot line that used to bounced off walls and a 30 ft line. It is about 70 ft.

Additionally, your phrase could be interpreted many ways. Is the squad of skeletons coming down a 5 ft hall or a 20 ft hall? Are they jammed together or are they walking with a 5 ft space between them?

And is it automatically better? I'm just going to remind you that 2d10 is 11 damage on average, where swinging twice is on average going to be 2d8+10 or 19 damage. That means that if both enemies fail their save, you've only done 3 more points of damage overall, but if either of them make their save, you've done less. And, I've definetly felt first hand and seen first hand that dealing 5 damage to enemies at levels 8 or so does not feel powerful, it feels like a waste, even if mathematically you have done more damage, because injured enemies are still 100% effective in combat.

Here is a tip: don't choose lightning or poison breath. Not all damage types are equal.

Not everyone makes choices on their race based on what is the most optimal, and it is a bit disingenuous to say "This is far too powerful if I ignore all the downsides and pick the best possible option" After all, Fire and Cold resistance are more common than Lightning resistance, so you've essentially gotten to "just pick acid"

No DM is going to have you fight damage resistant enemies all day long. The fighters would get really really pissed off. You are going to want to use your breath weapon several times in the boss fight, and not at all against trash mobs (unless you are in a position to vaporise a small army), which is why PB per long rest is so much better than once per short rest.

Wow, condescending and wrong. First off, let me point out that any DM who ever had their players go through Descent into Avernus has had their players fight enemies resistant to physical damage all day long. In fact, it can be rather common when fighting at certain levels or against certain categories of foes for that to be the case.

Also, you have no idea if they are going to want to use their breath multiple times on the boss. In fact, your framing of never against mobs of weak enemies and only against bosses wastes the only actually powerful thing about this ability. I might agree that it is cinematically cool to breath fire on the boss during the final showdown, but this is an ability designed to be effective at hitting multiple enemies, not single targets. And every player is going to recognize that.