What do you want for D20 Modern?

[Ruin Explorer]

Anyone who buys a non-GURPS game supplement on a RL country or historical period is currently a "sucker". None of the books produced in such a style so far, for any game, have had much worthwhile content, and most have to at least some extent oversimplified things.

GURPS has produced some very solid books along the same line, however, and thus they would be the model to follow if you wanted to make such a thing. Thorough research by someone who actually knows about the topic.

I mean, if you wanted to run a campaign set in Afghanistan (why? would it be "macho westerners w/super-high tech weaponry arrive, blow up bad brown people"? I pray not), I would not NEED a sourcebook, I would simply, as Velenne SO CORRECTLY points out, go to the library, and do some research, or, failing that, look for a GURPS book which covered the topic, as many GURPS books are "condensed research". I can't think of any stats I would need, and if I, as a GM, can't come up with a tunnel layout, I should probably quit now!

What I'd want is NOT books full of information I could get better versions of from a library or bookshop, but rather books with plenty of "crunchy bits".

People have suggested an Archaic Weapons Guide. That would be a decent idea, especially if you featured some nice optional rules as well, and maybe some generic PrCs (NOT super-precise ones, please!) appropriate to the periods covered.

The one exception to "information books" being worthless and not selling would be a book of floorplans. It's very hard to get floorplans for buildings, especially a large collection of assorted modern floorplans. Any d20 Modern book that did this would *also* sell to other gamers, such as those playing Spycraft, or even GURPS or whatever (I'm no fan of the GURPS floorplan line). I would personally prefer it NOT gridded, but that may just be me.

What you *should* be doing, IMHO, is playing to d20 Modern's strengths. Realism is *not* one of them. It claims to be cinematic, and maybe it is, but it's *certainly* not remotely realistic, so I think the people who want more "real-world" stuff would be disappointed with what they got, unless they had fairly low standards.

So books with a more "cinematic" angle might do well, an "action-movie" book, full of action-movie-appropriate PrCs, adventure ideas, optional rules on how to make the game more "action-movie"-ish, extra martial arts rules, and so on, could be very fun.

Some people say "less supernatural", but I don't think that's necessarily a good idea if you actually want to sell books. People like the supernatural, at least to judge from sales figures, and a book containing alternate rules-systems for magic, psionics, and so on could do extremely well, as most d20 Modern players seem to rather dislike the dull, incomplete, and D&D-ish rules inherent to the current version.

I mean, WotC has started off by position d20 Modern to be the premier modern RPG for horror and the supernatural, and I think it makes sense to take the ball and run with it, producing ideas more interesting and thought-through than the half-assed "D&D nowdays!" world of Urban Arcana, or the rather shoddy "Um, we have these psionics rules, maybe we can reprint them!" world of Agents of PSI.

If d20 Modern tries to go too "modern day", however, it may find stiff opposition, in the form of Spycraft, which really has superior rules in many regards, and already has a big fanbase and many products released.

Going to market with products that do NOT already exist, or which wildly out-do existing settings seems a better idea than trying to join in with "Yet another firearms guide", or "Guide to place the American military killed people in X".

No-one has, AFAIK, done a good d20 Cyberpunk setting. There have been some "less than successful" attempts, but a d20 Modern-based version could definately be successful where others have failed.

Anyway, the point is, d20 Modern is not remotely about realism. If it was, it would have very different rules. It claims to be about "cinematic action", and that really is where it stands the best chance.

Some modern-day, non-political, non-supernatural adventures could certainly sell, though, so long as they were "action-packed" enough (think Die Hard, Lethal Weapon, or, if you have the skills, The Usual Suspects, etc.).

One last idea - How about a "Noir"-style setting for d20 Modern? It's not going to sell a million copies, but it could be reasonably popular, and d20 Modern could "do" Noir pretty well, I suspect. Provide stats for 1930-50s weaponry, explain private detectives, torpedoes (the job, not the weapon), how to run femme fatales, and so on, and provide a setting in some fictional city, and you've got yourself a sourcebook I'd buy. Of course, you've also got the long-forgotten RPG "Noir", but I don't think anyone will care...

You extend that to a whole range of "Genre" sourcebooks for d20 Modern, each containing rules, crunchy bits, advice and ideas for running a campaign in that genre with d20 Modern.

d20 Modern: Post-Apocalypse.

d20 Modern: Time-Travel and Reality-Jumping.

d20 Modern: American Gothic. (The whole modern "American Gothic horror" thing is largely untapped, despite all the fairly successful movies in this genre. Rules for fear, ways to creep out the players, ways to keep things low-powered, and plenty of stats for things that go bump in the night, but that don't leap on you and growl a lot. Many X-Files episodes had the tone, as did)

d20 Modern: Conspiracy. (Could either be a complete, single world, or various suggestions. If you could get the license, you could go one better with d20 Modern: Dark*Matter, based on the Alternity setting)

d20 Modern: The Wild West.

And so on. Much like GURPS, the possibilities are nearly endless. If you were very daring, you might even go beyond "Modern" settings, and use the rules for others, such as more-gritty-than-D&D fantasy setting.

It really has massive potential, and I hate to see it being limited to giving me the stats for a Humvee or how many HP one of Saddam's Elite Guard has!

 

[Mistah_Richard]

Of course, I'll argue that most consumers of RPGs do not want to spend hours and days researching when they can drop 12 or 15 bucks on a solid product.

Also, just because someone made a crappy D20 Afghanistan, it does not mean someone can do MUCH better. My idea originally was a hot spots of the world: Pick almost any african region, Russian Black Market and Mafia, Afghanistan, End of the World Cults, places that could be worked into almost any adventure.

Ultimately, there are enough people out there taht want Modern Day Techno Thriller RPGs (remember all those folks that used to play Twilight and MERC 2000?) and while I'll say Spy Craft certainly has a good following, Spycraft is fantasy as you get. No Berlin 1961, no TRUE Cold War espionage stuff, nothing but Gadgets and Bond style stuff, which is cool, but certainly not the end all be all of Tecno Thriller RPGs.

With that said.

Floorplans.

What if you did a floor plan book with player aids thrown in? Here is a map of the bank and in the back of the book there is a letter head or deposit slip of to match the fictional name of the bank floor plans? Suddenly, not only do you have the maps everyone is dying for but you also have these cool value added gadgets you can add to make your game cooler. Each player aid would be generic enough to allow some customization by the GM ( the letterheads would be blank, deposit slips, hotel stationary would have a pplace to print the address on, etc).

I wonder if you did it as a download if you could include a print template to allow a GM to simply run it through their printer.

Hmmm...

Thoughts?

 

[Sixchan]

What I want to see for d20 modern is Tanks. LOTS of Tanks. All kinds of Tanks, old and new, from Panzers to Challengers. Tanktanktanktanktanktanktank.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

Mistah - You say all those people that *used* to play Twilight 2000 and Merc. Yes, there were plenty, once. I was one of them. I played Millenium's End, too, even more realistic and techno-obsessed. Heck, you name it, if it was a realistic modern combat RPG and they sold it after 1990, I played it.

Thing is, those products don't seem to sell any more. Admittedly the passing of the millenium may have helped make those games seem out of date, but I think there are also issues of popular culture, and RPG culture. I suspect that even had Millenium's End been titled Black Ops 2010, or whatever, we'd still be seeing a distinct lack of it on the shelves. It doesn't help that it resembles reality all too closely. Terrorist groups that seemed far-fetched in the Terrorist Sourcebook for it now seems all too realistic in some respects!

I mean, for Afghanistan, what would such a book contain? Details on the war? It's over now, and only a very few players, I suspect, would have ANY interest in recreating it. Most of them would probably prefer to play computer games of the same. So you'd be left with detailed ethnography, maps, place details and so on, much of which would likely be out of date by the time you finished it, perhaps obviously so.

There would be little or no "crunchy bits", and as WotC knows, "crunchy bits" sell books. Just ask them! They forced them to put *some* "crunchy bits" in The Silver Marches, and said that if it didn't sell with only a few "crunchy bits", mostly info, there would be no more informational-type books. It doesn't seem to have sold very well.

With other areas you face a similar problem. I mean, hands up who wants a detailed book on inter and intra-regional conflicts in Africa? I doubt we'll see any. Even those who do could probably write it themselves. At best, you'd write a detailed book that few people would want (I mean, you want to have your PC shooting some poor thirteen year old who is high on qat and being forced to fight by the person who kidnapped him from his parents? Thought not), with few "crunchy bits", or you'd have something that was unrealistic and probably seemed either overly happy, or racist. The same problem applies to Somalia. Once you've gotten that the country is run by warlords, and given stats for technicals, somali militia, and the game effects of being high on qat, what else is there to do? Recount the events of Blackhawk Down? There's already a book and a movie.

I just can't see that any people would really want those books. I mean, look, are there similar books in the GURPS line? No, because there's no real call for them. It's not a gap in the market, it's a non-market.

OTOH, you mention the Russian Mafia. That's not so unappealling. If you extended it to cover the Mafia in general, perhaps even the Triads and so on, went into a lot of detail, gave rules for certain things (like how much money, or whatever, you get from a certain area of the city/industry), gave lots of suggested plots, and some crunchy bits in the from of Social-oriented Feats ("Made" could be a Feat, for example), some gangster-ish physical/combat Feats, and some weapons suited to the mileux, you could have a decent book that people might actually buy, rather than picking up and going "Yikes!".

Basically, RPGs are about escapism. Even realistic ones. So people don't want horrible situations in their face. Gangsters are fine, because they're a part of "pop culture", and distant from most people's experience, and unlikely to get TOO unpleasant. Wars in Africa are not, because they're generally UTTERLY HORRIFIC, in a way even WW1 or WW2 weren't, quite, and they're still going on *right now*. Really, I'm racking my brains, but I can't think of anyone who would want to RP such a horrible situation (excepting a few White Wolf playing masochists, who probably would never by a d20 product).

For Technothriller, you surely want stuff that's a bit more, well, fun! Busting up drug barons is more fun, for one thing. Busting up the Russians or the Chinese or fictional break-away states is also a lot of fun, and they have lots of snazzy equipment, complex combat techniques, and crazy weapons that make for good "crunchy bits". I mean, who doesn't want a Feat for some secret Russian commando death grip, or rules for Chinese elite troops martial arts training, or whatever?

A slightly over-the-top terrorism sourcebook could be alright, too, though given how political that issue is right now, you might have to take some care. Remember to put in less-likely but fun and possible terror groups, as well as the usual "Middle Eastern Fanatics", "Crazy Cults" and "Anti-Government Types".

The only problem with an End of The World Cults book, is that it's maybe three years too late. The interest in that sort of thing is on the wane, like the cults themselves, I suspect. You could definately make them part of another sourcebook, like the Terrorism one, for example.

On the floorplans, YES! Definately! GM aids would be a VERY welcome addition, so long as the were "generic" enough to fit a variety of time-periods, or there were just a lot from various periods, of various styles, and so on. As a download, it could be even better, as you say, you could create a load of stuff, sell it as a collection of GM aids. I think I'd buy that, especially if I saw some samples and they were of good quality.

GM aids are one of the things we rarely see today, and they're always nice...

 

[blueshade]

vehicle guide

I agree that a vehicle guide like GR's Ultramodern Firearms would be awesome. This would be complete with vehicle customization rules. I want to be able to get a vehicle and soupe it up for my group and just blast down the street or have bulletproof mods.

 

[jonas889]

Realism in Modern.

I think the simple plea of 'realism' in d20 Modern isn't asking for real life gaming but more towards realism as apposed to fantasy. Bugbears and elves have no decent place in a 'modern' setting, or at least they shouldn't. There are plenty of fantastic non-real things that have a modern feel that beholders and ogres just don't.

I would like to see a monster manual with Modern monsters. Supernatural stuff can work. We still feel that ghosts are still around today, undead like Night of the Living Dead zombies or grotesque abonimations of Resident Evil and Silent Hill are 'modern' monsters we can deal with. When dealing with the occult and such in a modern setting fits into D20 more than giants and dragons.
Aliens can also work. Couple of different alien types like your standard 'grey' Roswell stuff all the way to Preditor.

I don't want to see magic like casting magic missile but I do want to see magic artifacts like the Ark of the Covenant from Raiders.

Give me a Book of Lost, Ancient, and Occult Artifacts and I'm a happy camper.

 

[Mistah_Richard]

OT here...

The African Wars are more horrific than WW2 or WW1? Hehehe...

Ooooook.

I think we can sum them all up as just plain bad "I wouldn't want to be there." Nothing happened in Africa that did not happen in either of these wars.

Back On Topic

More comments are welcome and wish lists are great, if we could keep the political ideology out, that would be great.

 

[Ranger REG]

Also, just because someone made a crappy D20 Afghanistan, it does not mean someone can do MUCH better. My idea originally was a hot spots of the world: Pick almost any african region, Russian Black Market and Mafia, Afghanistan, End of the World Cults, places that could be worked into almost any adventure.

Hey, I welcome any new product to provide me with better insight into Afghanistan and all the related events. After all, just because The Foundation Superhero RPG sucks, does not mean there cannot be better Superhero RPG like SAS d20 or Mutants & Masterminds (OGL/SRD-based standalone).

With that said.

Floorplans.

What if you did a floor plan book with player aids thrown in? Here is a map of the bank and in the back of the book there is a letter head or deposit slip of to match the fictional name of the bank floor plans? Suddenly, not only do you have the maps everyone is dying for but you also have these cool value added gadgets you can add to make your game cooler. Each player aid would be generic enough to allow some customization by the GM ( the letterheads would be blank, deposit slips, hotel stationary would have a pplace to print the address on, etc).

I welcome any modern floorplan, even player's handouts and illustrations. I mean it's one thing to show the battlemap from the bird's eye view, it's another when you can see it from the view of a person entering into the area.

Props are also helpful, but it would be nice to give us how-to guide (how to make business cards, how to make placecard for a social dinner, how to make secret dossier, etc.)

I wonder if you did it as a download if you could include a print template to allow a GM to simply run it through their printer.

You mean templates for MS Word or any other popular word processor? Who do I make the money order to and what's the address shall I send my payment? (Sorry, no credit card.)

 

[Bagpuss]

I wonder if you did it as a download if you could include a print template to allow a GM to simply run it through their printer.

Hmmm...

Thoughts?

Its possible in Acrobat files to leave sections where the user can type in text. They can't save the file unless they have the Acrobat Distiller, but they can still edit and print it out.

That would be cool if you could do all the layout and logo's but leave a space to put the address or contents of a letterhead, fake cheque, FBI document, etc.

In the case of certain documents you might want to leave small print at the bottom saying its a fake for gaming purposes only.

But something like that would be really cool.

 

[Robbert Raets]

I'd like some expanded vehicle rules.

It'd give us a chance to run autre games, like Grand Theft Auto or Airwolf D20...