What do you want to see in D20 Dragonlance?

[Michael Tree]

Rogue wizards are the big thing here. It's quite possible to advance in levels as a rogue wizard all you want, but you don't gain the benefits of high sorcery. High Sorcery is, essentially, a contract between the god of magic the PC wishes to worship (Solinari, Lunitari, Nuitari) and that PC. Rogue wizards do not enter into this contract. It's true that on the main continent rogue wizards are very rare, but this is more because of the *dominance* of the High sorcerers than anything else -- socio-political aspect, in a way. On other continents, "rogue" wizards are far more common.

You're overstating your point. There are a few rogue wizards, but they are few and far between, for the simple reason that they are under a death sentence by the conclave.

Besides, there aren't really any game mechanics differences between rogue wizards and wizards of the conclave. A rogue is a wizard who doesn't belong to the order and doesn't follow its dictates. Most renegades are wizards who used to be of the order, but rebelled for whatever personal reasons.

All wizards on Krynn are subject to the 3 moons, since the gods of magic are the source of all magic, and when they left in the 5th age, wizardry went away with them. Wizards in Taladas and elsewhere on Krynn all must choose a moon to follow, even if they are not a part of the order. That is simply the way magic works in Dragonlance, renegade or not.

I suppose you could have renegade "wizards" who don't use moon magic (5th age mysticism or sorcery, for example), but they would be a completely different magic system and core class, not wizards.

How are the Thorn Knights mechanically different from either normal wizards or HS wizards? That was certainly never addressed in the books, and Thorn Knights never made it to D&D...

AD&D stats for Thorn Knights were in the appendex in the The Second Generation compilation. They draw their magic from all three moons, something completely unparalled in Krynnish history.

A) What other prestige classes are there?
B) that's the whole point of multi-classing. You gain diversity (differeng skill-sets) at the expense of specialization/focus. You're saying you want the DL wizards to have all the benefits of High Sorcery (making them more powerful than renegade mages or even standard D&D mages), without any drawbacks. Sounds a tad munchkinish to me.

A) There could be many prestige classes representing different focusses on magic. One could favor necromancy, another could be geared towards wizards who sail the seas, another could be for minotaur wizards with more of an emphasis on combat, and yet another focussed on creating magic items. The Silvanesti woodshaper's guild would be one good example already mentioned in the books. They sky's the limit. The only restriction on prestige classes would be that the Order is the only organization on Ansalon.

B) There aren't any benefits of High Sorcery, aside from social ones. All wizards on Krynn are subject to the moons, except very low leveled ones. Wizards who for some reason aren't subject to the moons as normal are the very rare exception, and should have a prestige class of their own to reflext they deviation from the norm.

 

[Geron Raveneye]

Hmmm

I think one of the main problems to cast the DL roles into 3E mold is that they weren´t really created to be an "alternative" choice. Look at the classes that are mostly discussed.

The Knights were a choice-for-life, usually. You joined the Order, and while you were a Knight, you didn´t go and took some levels as Rogue or Cleric or anything else, except Knight levels. If you took any other levels, you were tried for dishonourable conduct, and possibly expelled. As an ex-Knight, you of course could rise in another class...

The Wizards of High Sorcery are a choice-for-life even more. As they regulate all arcane spellcasters on Ansalon, you either joined them, or you became a renegade. Joining just meant powers depending on your moon, a slightly better spell progression and two forbidden schools. A renegade was the standard wizard, just that he was hunted to death. If you were a member, you didn´t take other levels either, because they were of small use, except rogue levels. You weren´t allowed to bear weapons and armor anyway. Leaving the WoHS was a no-no, because you either became a renegade wizard (death or conversion), or you started in another class...and became a multi-classed wizard who was not in the Order and defied the Conclave´s rules about weapons/armor...renegade again.

As Michael Tree already pointed out...both the Knights and the Wizards aren´t in their essence "prestige" classes. One was as popular and easily accessible as the US army, the other one was a "do or die" choice. Both didn´t have much in prerequesites, and didn´t offer much in advantages that wasn´t equalized by a set of disadvantages.

Another trait of prestige classes is that they serve the specialization of a character, to focus him on a set of skills. Like the Loremaster (collecting knowledge), or the Assassin (killing people). Neither the Knights nor the WoHS really specialized a character...they only inducted him in an organization so he could continue with what he was already doing. Joining the Knights only gave you more prestige, and you could become a watered-down paladin later on...nothing a core class couldn´t have done, too. And the WoHS only offered you your life in peace and a little boost in general magical power in exchange for taking away two schools from your list.

I guess there´s way how to express them either as variant classes or as prestige classes...but IMO their feel would be preserved better with making them variant classes. I guess, though, we´ll have to wait and see what the original creators will think up for them.

 

[Eryx]

To be honest, I want DL 3rd to be a D&D setting, not some hybrid like WoT. I want to be able to use other sourcebooks (Splatbooks, R&R...etc) with it.

As for KoS and High Sorcery Wizards, they don't need to be prestige classes although they make also work quite well in that regards.

How do you think Sorcerers should be handled? Thats not been discussed yet as I recall.

 

[Voadam]

In my opinion WoHS should be prestige classes and so should Knights of Solamnia.

Both require skill and initiation rites before becoming a member. You can not just switch into being a knight, you must be an accomplished warrior and a go on a quest first. Once you have been approved and accepted then you can become a knight. The knighthood is a political organization, and specific political organization classes should be represented by prestige classes, not core classes.

For the WoHS you must be able to do a certain level of magic and pass a magical test (usually in game) to become a memeber of the order. At that point you choose your moon orientation. That sounds like it is best represented by a prestige class. Just because the political organization is prevalent and demands that you join it or die does not mean that it is better represented by a core class, it still sounds much better reflected mechanically by a prestige class.

Granted I'm working from the 1e hardcover D&D rulesbook for DL but there were differences in the orders depending on which one you choose, and apprentices were generic until they took the test. Renegades did not choose moons or gain the bonuses or penalties of moon affiliation at all. They were just socially hunted. (Wasn't there an illusionist renegade in the first set of Tales?).

I can't speak about 5th age wizardry as I only read through _Dragons of Summer Flames_ (which had an appendix for the D&D class stats of the three Dark knighthood orders) but after the cataclysm when the gods did not grant their followers powers the wizards still had their wizardry.

 

[Wolvorine]

Re: Re: Re: art!!!

my bad wolvorine! ... you don't have that fancy hosted website thingee ... but I will look into your stuff too

<chuckles> This is a good point, maybe I should pester Morrus until he hosts me, too. hehe

Me, all I really want to see in the 3E DL is, well, loving care. Loving care tenderly dealt out to the book with large, generous doses of Weiss & Hickman's direct involvement (since Margaret won't be writing it directly, sadly). Just so long as it captures the spirit of the setting, I don't care how they do it.

 

[Michael Tree]

In my opinion WoHS should be prestige classes and so should Knights of Solamnia.

Knights of the Sword and probably Knights of the Rose should be prestige classes, but Knights of the Crown shouldn't be. The primary reasons are that a beginning character can start as one, and that there are no game mechanic differences between one and a fighter or warrior.

Actually, come to think of it, the OA Samurai class would make a great "knight" core class. The concept of an ancestral weapon that improves as you gain honor and experience fits almost perfectly with the Knights, and the improved Will saves, social skills, and skill points nicely reflect those who have greater discipline and courtly training as well. (This class needn't be specific to the knights of Solamnia, it's appropriate for the Knights of Takhisis, and the other varied knightly orders too.) The rank-and-file of the knightly orders could be a combination of Warriors, Fighters, Knights, and the occasional Ranger scout.

I also recommend using the Rokugan 'Battle' skill, which represents practical use of tactics and leadership. There are so many leader and general characters in Dragonlance that it's very appropriate.

 

[hong]

Actually, come to think of it, the OA Samurai class would make a great "knight" core class.

Great minds think alike:

The knight class

The concept of an ancestral weapon that improves as you gain honor and experience fits almost perfectly with the Knights,

I'm not so sure about this; or at least, I'm not sure it should be a benefit available solely to knights. It makes sense for a Japanese setting where the cult of the sword is prominent, and swords are confined (mainly) to one particular social class. In a regular occidental campaign, it should probably be more broadly available, and apply to more than just swords. Perhaps a "signature item" feat that can be taken by any character would fit the bill -- it could be swords for knights, or a magical staff for wizards, etc.

 

[Eryx]

You will have to forgive me here, it's early and I can't remember which order the Knight Orders go in but...

Knight Order #1.
Basic class, from which you can move onto the prestige class.

Knight Order #2 & #3.
Make this the prestige class, with 5 levels for each order.

It sounds rather simplistic but may work. Otherwise if you make the Knight of Solamnia a prestige class, I'm not so sure it would work well.


Just the mad ramblings of a tired person...

 

[Geron Raveneye]

Hmmm...

Sorcerers are a good question. First, I´d definitely allow them on Ansalon...just not too many. A few would be okay. I mean, hey, Dragonlance is the perfect place to play a dragonblooded sorcerer..and if that´s not enough, there might be some Irda-blooded sorcerers around.
As for how to handle them...well, first, I wouldn´t place them in the WoHS, for the simple reason that their magic is not of the moons, but much older than that of the Conclave. I wouldn´t have the Conclave force a sorcerer through the Test either, because it is designed to test a wizard...not a sorcerer. I´d rather place a WoHS at the side of every known sorcerer, under cover or in the open, to watch over the sorcerer and report back to the Conclave. Makes for a nice adventure hook and eases the getting together of a sorcerer and a WoHS in any potential group.

Another question, though...should the levels be capped again, as they were in the earlier editions?

 

[Eryx]

Another question, though...should the levels be capped again, as they were in the earlier editions?

I'd say drop the level cap. Any DM who doesn't like it isn't going to use it, so why bother keeping it around?

Also, I like the sorcerer/watcher idea.