What Do You Want to See in the New John Carter Roleplaying Game?

Alzrius

The EN World kitten
The idea of characters growing in ability/power over time is one of the fundamental aspects of an RPG (at least according to Jon Peterson's excellent book Playing at the World). Virtually all RPGs have some form of this, save for a few outliers that tended to suffer from its lack of inclusion (e.g. the original edition of Traveler).

That said, you can absolutely get away with a slow increase, with a low enough curve that it doesn't break away from the source material. The old FASERIP version of the Marvel Superheroes game was, in my opinion, great at this; karma points could either be expended to grant in-game successes, or saved up over time - a very long time - to improve existing powers or even gain new ones.
 

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Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
The idea of characters growing in ability/power over time is one of the fundamental aspects of an RPG (at least according to Jon Peterson's excellent book Playing at the World). Virtually all RPGs have some form of this, save for a few outliers that tended to suffer from its lack of inclusion (e.g. the original edition of Traveler).

A couple these days (like many FATE-based games) offer up character development rather than character advancement. You may not grow much in power, but you do change over time, and for some things, this is workable.

That said, you can absolutely get away with a slow increase, with a low enough curve that it doesn't break away from the source material. The old FASERIP version of the Marvel Superheroes game was, in my opinion, great at this; karma points could either be expended to grant in-game successes, or saved up over time - a very long time - to improve existing powers or even gain new ones.

It was a tad too slow, IMHO, so that our GMs at the time wound up introducing plot-based changes to character power to substitute.
 

Alzrius

The EN World kitten
A couple these days (like many FATE-based games) offer up character development rather than character advancement. You may not grow much in power, but you do change over time, and for some things, this is workable.

My understanding is that most of those offer some form of narrative authority to the player, which is essentially how those games offer "power" to the PCs. Either way, it fits the structure of offering a meta-game reward for completing a session/adventure/arc/etc.

It was a tad too slow, IMHO, so that our GMs at the time wound up introducing plot-based changes to character power to substitute.

Yeah, my group wasn't happy with it either, except for me and our GM.
 

Well, I disagree with your disagreement.

D&D has a major increase in character power over time. So do most other d20 games, including Pathfinder, by extension. So do most of the retroclones, by extension as well.

If your disagreement boils down to "Games that try to be D&D or are D&D with the serial numbers filed off behave like D&D" then yes I'll concede that games that try to be D&D try to behave like D&D.

So does every game ever produced under the White Wolf banner.

Not so much with the exponential power curve. Yes, they get more powerful. But they do it with deliberate diminishing returns for the XP you put in.
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
If your disagreement boils down to "Games that try to be D&D or are D&D with the serial numbers filed off behave like D&D" then yes I'll concede that games that try to be D&D try to behave like D&D.

Wow. Way to be dismissive of lots of great design work done by dozens of people, dude.

My disagreement was with the assertion that, "Pretty much the only game with character power growth the way you indicate is D&D." This is factually incorrect. If your defense of the point is to try to lump dozens of games which are quite distinct in theme, mechanical details, and playstyle as "trying to be D&D", I think we are pretty much done.

Not so much with the exponential power curve.

Flag on the play. Abuse of a term with a precise mathematical meaning to describe a very imprecise characteristic. We cannot even clearly define what "power" across games is, much less show that it grows exponentially with some useful variable (as opposed to growing linearly, or with some other pattern), and compare it in various games.
 

Wow. Way to be dismissive of lots of great design work done by dozens of people, dude.

Wow. Way to assume bad faith, dude.

Yes, I'm considering Pathfinder a branch of D&D. For a game that marketed itself under the tagline "3.5 lives Thrives" I do not think that this is remotely unfair. And the OSR is a part of D&D - even sometimes explicitly called Old-School Retroclones. Almost all the OSR starts with two approaches - either trying to keep the game and change the methods, or building on the game.

Yes, they are all a part of D&D.

Flag on the play. Abuse of a term with a precise mathematical meaning to describe a very imprecise characteristic.

Overturned by the TV replay. Use of a term with a precise mathematical meaning to describe something in many cases explicitly set out by the game designers to follow that mathematical progression.

If you actually look even at a superficial level at the CR system in 3.0, 3.5, or Pathfinder, three things are blatantly obvious. The first is that the challenges a character is expected to face are tied to their level. The second is that the

In short according to all of 3.0, 3.5, and Pathfinder, character power doubles every two levels. Just in case you aren't aware, that is an exponential relationship.

Doing the same for 4e we find that character power to handle an encounter is expected to double every four levels. Again this is an exponential relationship. And that a relevant measure of a character's power is their expected ability to tackle problems.

Older editions of D&D are not so obvious about this relationship because Gygax was either better or worse about obfuscating his game mechanics (depending on your value judgements; there's a case either way) and also because classic D&D has a level soft-cap and an endgame at around level 10 after which the nature of the game changes. And because the XP chart changes over time, starting out exponential but changing in a different way for each class.

We can also look at the power of monsters by hit dice. And here we're going by Gygax and the 1E DMG. Allowing for rounding the XP value of a monster doubles with each increase in hit dice - an exponential relationship - from 0hd to 3hd. From 3hd to 111hd it approximately multiplies by 1.5 with each hit dice. And after that point we're into the endgame. Why there are two exponential relationships there is I suspect due to a mix of playtesting and the flattening out of the PC experience point chart.

And further given that Gygax is talking about equitable numbers of experience points, we can show that the relationship between numbers of monsters and extra monster power is about what would be expected.

xp.jpg


We cannot even clearly define what "power" across games is, much less show that it grows exponentially with some useful variable (as opposed to growing linearly, or with some other pattern), and compare it in various games.

We can however show that in D&D power to handle the expected challenges does grow exponentially with level and this is part of the design intent. We can show that in almost any other level based game, even fantasy heartbreakers, we don't get this exponential curve based on levels and that in most non-level based games you don't expect to see such power growth over the course of a campaign. And indeed in most RPGs without challenge-based XP awards you may get increasingly powerful abilities (as with the higher level disciplines in Vampire: the Masquerade) but the cost increases for those higher level rewards, while the amount of XP you earn over time remains flat based on a per-session award.
 

aramis erak

Legend
If you're going to do the setting, do the real setting, not a modernized sanitized politically correct disneyfied version.

While playing someone else's character may be a thing in videogames, tabletop is full of people who want to make their own stories.

Having the iconics included is of some use - it gives the players a good comparison. And, for some, there are plenty of John and Dejah stories left untold.

I don't doubt that doing a weak job on character generation has doomed a game or two (Marvel Heroic Roleplaying, as an example).
MHR's failure was that the license was pulled out from under them... due to Disney buying out Marvel, and consolidating the IP.
Superheroes are a bad example, anyway - the strongest sellers in the genre have been the ones where most players are playing the iconic characters straight out of the core book... the various Marvel and DC offerings especially... the surviving "also ran", Champions, suffers from its own rules being excessively comprehensive, and I've met not a few groups who actually have some players using the sample characters for lack of willingness to engage with the Character Gen.

If you want an example of "failure for lack of decent Character Gen" - TSR's Indianna Jones RPG. (Character Gen was in a supplement, not the core box.)
 

Desh-Rae-Halra

Explorer
I'm with Aramis Erak re: the original question asked: Be faithful to the original setting.

(For Americans, this might include NSFW Martian Breasts)

Make our Own Heroes.
What game engines are you considering?
 

modiphius

Explorer
A sense that the designers have some idea of what type of game they want to make?

Well we do :) there's a good section of the line in planning already however we are well known for our surveys of fans and listening to the heartbeat of the community to see whether there should be a leaning in one direction or not

I'd say that the official characters must be achievable under the rules... but you don't have to be able to do it with a *starting* PC.

A great deal of fiction (especially older stuff, like John Carter stories) *don't* have much power increase over the course of the novels - older serializations often had the main character be much the same for extended periods of their time. If you have that power level achieved with a starting character, but you have character power growth like most modern games, you soon blow the roof off the power seen in the original property.

The game scales very well - and like Conan - starting characters will be quite capable, not first level noobs

I'm with Aramis Erak re: the original question asked: Be faithful to the original setting.

(For Americans, this might include NSFW Martian Breasts)

Make our Own Heroes.
What game engines are you considering?

We are being faithful to the setting with some great ERB scholars and industry fans involved in the project. Art-wise it will deal with things in the same way as we do with Conan - slave girls don't need to be cowering but can be gutting an opponent alongside the hero, Dejah Thoris can be as capable as she is in the stories, whilst we can infer the types of costumes they had (or not) we don't need to show nudity all the time to be authentic - ERB only mentions it briefly in passing, and doesn't again mention it. So the art doesn't need to make a point of it.

It's using a streamlined 'LITE' version of 2d20 the new system by Jay Little (Star Wars Edge of the Empire and X-Wing Miniatures - no, there's no 'weird dice' :) which is being used for Conan, Mutant Chronicles and Infinity plus several other big systems/games coming in 2017 and 2018.

It's quite a cinematic system and we'll be posting Conan play throughs soon so you can get an idea of what it's like.
 

I have never had any interest in playing characters other people have created.

I'm with some of the other posters here - do it with the sensibilities of the time period, not modern PC fearfulness. If it has a SJW vibe or a fear of showing nudity, I'm not interested. Then it becomes just another sanitized rpg.
 

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