What does a DM owe his players?/ Are the rules written in stone?

[Odhanan]

All to often I see or hear Players proclaim (or imply) that their GM "owes" them for their very pressence as Players. To me that Player does the least amount of work at the table, so a GM owing a Player is like your boss expecting you to pay him. It doesn't make sense to me.

That's not one or the other. That's both at the same time: The DM owes the players for dedicating their time to the game he wants to run; the players owe the DM for dedicating time and efforts for them to have fun.

One word: respect. Mutual respect.

 

[DethStryke]

One word: respect. Mutual respect.

That's three words.

 

[Agent Oracle]

Well, gosh, then it must be true.

Like Hussar said, what's so special about a +1 Sword? Who friggin cares? Give me a sword that is the Goblin Nation heirloom, which any and every goblinoid will fight to the death to retreive from non-goblin thieves, and you've got something near interesting; even if it's a +1 Shortsword or a +3 Humanbane Shortsword.

Just because it's magical doesn't mean it's special... it's special if you make it special. And just because you've gamed for 15 months and two weeks doesn't mean you suddenly can't appreciate that. It's like saying someone who has been drinking wine for more than two years can't appreciate the mixture of flavors as well as he used to could.

QFT: You Know you've got a good thing going when you can make a player abandon a greater bonus for an object of greater flavor. I haven't gotten to that point yet, but once I got a player to give up a +3 axe for a +1 Maul (higher damage dice, and +2 magic worth of specials allready applied) that had an interesting backstory. Still, i've got to work on my item descriptions until they start choosing masterwork /w history over a generic plusses.

 

[Odhanan]

That's three words.

Gosh. I thought the period would explain it all. But NOOOO...

 

[gizmo33]

Two words: three words

I mostly think a +1 sword is uninteresting but it does add something to the game because it glows magic and for a moment players don't know what it is (sense of wonder - literally). Once they know what it is it's still better than a normal sword and it adds something to the "resource management" part of DnD.

In terms of mutual respect, I look at DMing like being a song-writer in a band. It's not my job to write stuff that the players like, but I respect them for not liking it and they can find another band. I've never played in anyones game that's been so bad that I've been angry at them for wasting my time. I think DMs should create what interests them, it's the only thing that's really sustainable over the long term - and if what interests the DM also interests the players then that's great.

 

[Odhanan]

The true key to a sense of wonder is significance.

Significance is always more important when an item is seen for the first time. Hence the confusion with the amount of magical items in a game.

We were talking about the Sword that's great and wondrous because it's the freaking Flame of the West, not because it's +1 or +3 or whatever. Flame of the West "means" something in the context of Middle-earth. The elven bread has meaning in the context of Middle-earth. Glamdring and Sting, the blades of Gondolin Frodo and Gandalf are carrying mean something. Same thing about the blades the hobbits find in the Mounds (tombs of soldiers of Arnor who fell against the Shadow of Angmar centuries before).

Sense of Wonder goes with meaning. Without meaning in-game, you don't have wonder. And meaning in the game world doesn't depend on game mechanics besides considerations of pure aesthetics (a weapon of Evil wouldn't be "Holy" but "Unholy", a weapon that saved the destiny of the world is more likely to be a weapon +5 than +1, that kind of considerations).

PS: I'm waiting for Raven Crowking to show up anytime now...

 

[Montague68]

The true key to a sense of wonder is significance.

Significance is always more important when an item is seen for the first time. Hence the confusion with the amount of magical items in a game.

We were talking about the Sword that's great and wondrous because it's the freaking Flame of the West, not because it's +1 or +3 or whatever. Flame of the West "means" something in the context of Middle-earth. The elven bread has meaning in the context of Middle-earth. Glamdring and Sting, the blades of Gondolin Frodo and Gandalf are carrying mean something. Same thing about the blades the hobbits find in the Mounds (tombs of soldiers of Arnor who fell against the Shadow of Angmar centuries before).

Sense of Wonder goes with meaning. Without meaning in-game, you don't have wonder. And meaning in the game world doesn't depend on game mechanics besides considerations of pure aesthetics (a weapon of Evil wouldn't be "Holy" but "Unholy", a weapon that saved the destiny of the world is more likely to be a weapon +5 than +1, that kind of considerations).

PS: I'm waiting for Raven Crowking to show up anytime now...

Agreed, and part of significance is laying the groundwork in the campaign for such magic.

In my experience, trying to come up with a legendary backstory for every magic item the PC's obtain is counterproductive. To paraphrase Freud, sometimes a +1 sword is just a +1 sword. Yes, finding Sir Johnboy's sword that he used to kill the dread Bonzo is quite the rush, but if the story itself is just simply dumped on the party when they find the sword or get a Legend Lore cast on it, I find players sort of get the "yeah, yeah skip the flavor text what does it do?" look. If you plant Sir Johnboy's story earlier in the campaign, it definitely has more of an effect, but takes more planning and work - something the harried DM might not be able to afford.

 

[Harmon]

That's not one or the other. That's both at the same time: The DM owes the players for dedicating their time to the game he wants to run; the players owe the DM for dedicating time and efforts for them to have fun.

One word: respect. Mutual respect.

Oh, I am all down with the respect. Problem is that Players that come in feeling that they are owed something generally show none of the respect they demand. Its just a thing that annoys the hell out of me- Players that think about their characters and the situation they are in for a few minutes a week, and think that that is working on the campaign, while the GM spends hours working out plots, getting the monsters worked out, figuring the magic items, treasure, and such then a Player comes in and thinks he is owed something for just showing up. Grr- it annoys the hell out of me, and to say that it annoys me is going mild.

Back on the subject however- the idea of a weapon, or item with a back story is more appealing to me then a magic item.

Example- Grayson (Ftr/Rngr/DeepwoodSniper) carried a sword- Flint, from 7th lvl ‘til now at 11th when he picked up an adamantine sword (to many golem fights and not enough arrows). Now he carried Flint because it belonged to a friend, which died in the Greyhawk War. He plans to give the sword up to his friend’s family but the only name he knew this friend by is not a Dwarf anyone knows, so he can’t return it. The sword was not magical, just Master Worked, its now a +1 blade.

Another example- same character carries a MW Mighty (+4) Long Composite Bow that was given to him by the Elves that trained him in his youth. The bow’s name is Thunder. When Thunder was Sundered he wrapped the bow in a blanket, which he carried it around in for a brief time, finally he asked a cleric friend- “I need a favor, my bow was broken in the fight on the island, could you fix it?”

Grayson did not get a magic weapon until he was 9th level, why- he passed up magic weapons, because he had two that he liked, that meant something to him. To me that is a role playing element that makes the character more turn to himself.

Peace all.

 

[Olaf the Stout]

So whats the big deal about the players going 1 session without magic items?

Just to point out....a CR1 spear trap costs 1200 GP to make.

So my wizard, thinking he may someday make a keep or fortress, if he wants to put one measly spear trap in, would have to, at his going rate, do 120 identifies. I think if you look at the grandscheme of the economics of a DnD world, then making a 100 some profit on a few identifies here and there isn't a backbreaker.

BTW look at rent....for a Good stay at an Inn, its 2 GP a night. So for a month its 60 GP, and thats not including meals. So make it another 30GP, for a grand total of 90 GP.

So the question then is, how many identifies does he do a month? IMHO not alot. Adventurers and finders of magic items don't wander into town every day. So for him to stay in business, continue to do research, build up a library, correspond with other sages and magickers, and so on, and still be able to make a profit to enable him to live at a lifestyle he is accustomed to, he set his value at 300 GP. The players are free to go elswhere of course.

Let's look at some real world services. An hour with a lawyer can cost from 300-500 dollars, roughly what, 30-50 GP. A doctor's visit is 250-500 dollars, again, 25-50 dollars. A mechanic charges about 65 dollars an hour for his services, so lets say 7GP an hour. I'm paying a guy a base of 50 dollars to make some decals for me, thats 5 GP for a job that, if I had the computer and printer, would take me 20 minutes to do, if that.

The wizard has spent x number of hours making identify scrolls, since he doesn't want to walk around with identify memorized, using up a spell slot he would need for defense. Saying that he is making a 150 GP profit per use of the scroll does not take into account the amount of business he gets. Lawyers and doctors charge what they do for their expertise, and usually can count on further charges down the road to make even more money. They and mechanics know they will have a steady stream of customers.

A wizard doesn't know that. At least, if you have a realistic set of world economics. Remember, in our world, a vast amount of wealth is concentrated in the hands of a few. Wizards in a DnD world would be part of that world, because they can do what others can't, and should be rewarded for the time spent learning those skills, the risks and challenges they must face.

It would only take the wizard 12 identify spells charged at the going rate to get the required money, not 120 as you stated. The spear trap costs 1,200 GP to build. 1,200/100 = 12. Since your NPC is charging 300 GP per identify then it will only take him 6 identify spells to get the cash.

As for your rent example, the cost per night is not what it would cost him if he stayed there a month. If he was staying there a whole month then it would be at a cheaper rate. Plus if he was staying in the one place for a prolonged period of time it is reasonable to assume that he would be looking at getting a more permanent place of residence.

And currently he is travelling with a caravan. I doubt that they are charging him 2 GP per night!

One thing to remember, and it is something that I sometimes forget, that fun should be more important than realism. Sure, you want to make your game as real as possible but if it comes at the expense of your players' fun then it really isn't worth the trade-off.

Olaf the Stout

 

[Hussar]

Oh, I am all down with the respect. Problem is that Players that come in feeling that they are owed something generally show none of the respect they demand. Its just a thing that annoys the hell out of me-

I am really curious. How often have you personally seen this? I polled EnWorld before the crash and the vast majority of respondants had either never seen it or had only seen it once. Personally, in the past three years of playing online, I've only seen it once as well.