What does a DM owe his players?/ Are the rules written in stone?

[Felix]

If the campaign were set up with these rules:
1) 10th level PCs
2) No magic items

Then I would ask if the dearth of magic items was due to a lack of items in the world. If yes, I'd play an item-crafting Wizard. If it was because we were robbed, or something, I'd play a different caster, either Sorcerer or Druid probably.

But I would not play a melee class.

It's almost specifically at 10th level when full casters begin to pull ahead of melee PCs in terms of power (and by power, I mean survivability). Casters can do things at that point with their spells that meleers can't even begin to dream of doing without magical item support.

It is very much integral to the system of balance that the rules support to have a given degree of magical support in terms of items at given levels. Those wealth guidelines, while guidelines, represent the cost of equipping characters so they can survive at that level of play given standard encounters. It's beautifully done; though you don't have to always provide EL-appropriate encounters, at very least you'll know what kind of damage you're going to inflict upon a party.

And when you remove that peg upholding PC survivability, things can become unstable quickly. Certainly when you have PCs capable of crafting their own magic items to support themselves, as I would do in that game.

---

That being said, there are numerous games that support low-magic play; if a protracted low-magic campaign was your goal, I can recommend both Conan RPG and Iron Heroes as functionally better at low-magic.

---

If you did not intend to deny PCs magic items for a long time, then as a player I would like a good reason as to why I am 10th level and don't have any magical resources. Getting busted out of prison is a good reason: they still have all my stuff. Getting robbed by 15th level NPCs, also a good reason. Getting told, "no, you never did come upon magic items through your 10 level career; so you're all in a bar when the bartender comes up to your group..." would not satisfy me, or my desire to have good in-game reasoning.

---

Finally, as a player I would like to see parity between my PCs' loot and other PCs. If I'm poor because the DM decides it to be so, then I'd like that to be the case for everyone. Not because I'm whiny, but because I would feel like the DM was playing favorites, even if that weren't the case. This is especially true regarding character creation: if a PC claims the first magic item we find I'm not going to be upset about it, I'll just be quicker next time!

 

[Felix]

I wanted to see their power levels so I could gauge what I could give them without becoming overpowering.

No more than one item can cost more than 20% of the total, nothing more than 50%.

This will prevent overpowering a PC through items, and is an absolutely fair way of dealing with wealth at character creation. If that is not enough, make the 10th level PCs start with the 9th level PC wealth equivalent and apply the same formula. Or 8th level, but in that case be prepared to start dishing out the semi-costly loot that keeps mid-high adventurers alive, like potions of Cure Critical Wounds

10th level equivalent: 49,000 gp
No more than one item costing between 9,800 gp and 24,500.

9th level equivalent: 36,000 gp
No more than one item costing between 7,200 gp and 18,000

8th level equivaletn: 27,000 gp
No more than one item costing between 5,400 gp and 13,500

 

[Hypersmurf]

Last time I ran a game starting in the mid-levels (7th, from memory), I had the players each send me a 'wish-list' a week or two before the game started for the characters they had in mind, with a "Really Really Want", "Would Be Nice", or "Afterthought" ranking. With a total in the general ballpark of the wealth-by-level guidelines.

Then I played around with the lists. If someone Really Really Wanted Gloves of Dexterity +4 and a +3 Longbow, with Bracers of Archery as Would Be Nice, they might get the gloves, get a +2 Giantbane Longbow, an Efficient Quiver, and some Flaming arrows. They could have one or two of the items on their Afterthought list, a few random potions and minor wondrous items, and maybe one medium ring or wondrous item that you wouldn't normally choose while shopping, but could have picked up off the evil priestess a couple of levels ago... a Ring of Shooting Stars, or a Medallion of Thoughts, or a Belt of Dwarvenkind.

It also let me insert some items with abilities that don't appear in the books.

So it meant that they had input into what their loadout was, but with a slightly more organic feel than the Walmart Style.

I've found in the past that some of the most interesting items on my character sheets have been the ones that don't necessarily advance my speciality at all - the ones I'd never spend hard-earned cash on, but that we picked up somewhere and never sold. The Flask of Infinite Blood. The Jade Frog Figurine of Wondrous Power. The Sofa of Healing.

-Hyp.

 

[Keifer113]

Last time I ran a game starting in the mid-levels (7th, from memory), I had the players each send me a 'wish-list' a week or two before the game started for the characters they had in mind, with a "Really Really Want", "Would Be Nice", or "Afterthought" ranking. With a total in the general ballpark of the wealth-by-level guidelines.

Then I played around with the lists. If someone Really Really Wanted Gloves of Dexterity +4 and a +3 Longbow, with Bracers of Archery as Would Be Nice, they might get the gloves, get a +2 Giantbane Longbow, an Efficient Quiver, and some Flaming arrows. They could have one or two of the items on their Afterthought list, a few random potions and minor wondrous items, and maybe one medium ring or wondrous item that you wouldn't normally choose while shopping, but could have picked up off the evil priestess a couple of levels ago... a Ring of Shooting Stars, or a Medallion of Thoughts, or a Belt of Dwarvenkind.

It also let me insert some items with abilities that don't appear in the books.

So it meant that they had input into what their loadout was, but with a slightly more organic feel than the Walmart Style.

-Hyp.

I had a feel for what they wanted. I don't know about asking for a specific list...if I didn't deliver it would be like Santa not bringing a Red Ryder BB gun.

 

[Keifer113]

If the campaign were set up with these rules:
1) 10th level PCs
2) No magic items

Then I would ask if the dearth of magic items was due to a lack of items in the world. If yes, I'd play an item-crafting Wizard. If it was because we were robbed, or something, I'd play a different caster, either Sorcerer or Druid probably.

But I would not play a melee class.

It's almost specifically at 10th level when full casters begin to pull ahead of melee PCs in terms of power (and by power, I mean survivability). Casters can do things at that point with their spells that meleers can't even begin to dream of doing without magical item support.

It is very much integral to the system of balance that the rules support to have a given degree of magical support in terms of items at given levels. Those wealth guidelines, while guidelines, represent the cost of equipping characters so they can survive at that level of play given standard encounters. It's beautifully done; though you don't have to always provide EL-appropriate encounters, at very least you'll know what kind of damage you're going to inflict upon a party.

And when you remove that peg upholding PC survivability, things can become unstable quickly. Certainly when you have PCs capable of crafting their own magic items to support themselves, as I would do in that game.

---

That being said, there are numerous games that support low-magic play; if a protracted low-magic campaign was your goal, I can recommend both Conan RPG and Iron Heroes as functionally better at low-magic.

---

If you did not intend to deny PCs magic items for a long time, then as a player I would like a good reason as to why I am 10th level and don't have any magical resources. Getting busted out of prison is a good reason: they still have all my stuff. Getting robbed by 15th level NPCs, also a good reason. Getting told, "no, you never did come upon magic items through your 10 level career; so you're all in a bar when the bartender comes up to your group..." would not satisfy me, or my desire to have good in-game reasoning.

---

Finally, as a player I would like to see parity between my PCs' loot and other PCs. If I'm poor because the DM decides it to be so, then I'd like that to be the case for everyone. Not because I'm whiny, but because I would feel like the DM was playing favorites, even if that weren't the case. This is especially true regarding character creation: if a PC claims the first magic item we find I'm not going to be upset about it, I'll just be quicker next time!

true I should have made a backstory as to why they had no items. I prefer a low magic world because it makes having magic items more wonderous. That being said, only the greatest of heroes have magic items. I don't like the magic shop on the corner and everyone has a +5 Vorpal. That doesn't mean I am stingy with items, just that I like magic to be special.

 

[Felix]

That being said, only the greatest of heroes have magic items.

9th level used to be "name level" when you became well known. I'd say that in 3e 10th level gets you something near that. Unless you're in FR, in which case you need to get in line with all the other 10th-level unemployed adventurers.

I don't like the magic shop on the corner and everyone has a +5 Vorpal. That doesn't mean I am stingy with items, just that I like magic to be special.

But it's the little things that matter the most to PCs. And if you're only trying to avoid +5 vorpals being thrown about, then impose the wealth restriction Uder mentioned. But restricting a fighter's ability to have a +1 sword to bypass DR, or even a simple Cure potion, neither of which violate your +5 vorpal rule, is verging on stingy. It's not the special items you need to worry about; its the commonplace magic that a DnD setting assumes that's crucial.

 

[Hussar]

Just a note....

I was not limiting the players in their magic, just delaying a session or two in giving things out. I wanted to see their power levels so I could gauge what I could give them without becoming overpowering. No one wants to be the fighter with a +1 sword when the other fighter has a +5 Vorpal Dancing sword that is Holy and has fiery and Icy burst and also does sonic damage. They will ultimately in a session or two be geared upto the appropriate levels.

However, if you follow the wealth guidelines, you will find that no one has that Vorpal Dancing Sword, because such an item is far too expensive.

Honestly, use the rules. In my game, death is a fairly frequent thing, so new PC's are parachuting in on a regular basis. This means that I just let them pick their own gear appropriate to their level. Works fine. No one is overpowered and no one is underpowered. Believe it or not, the RAW really is balanced.

 

[pogre]

Others have mentioned the game balance issue. IMO - A 10th level fighter without magic items is not in the ballpark of a 10th level wizard without magic items in terms of power.

I largely agree with Herreman. As long as your players trust you to powerdown encounters due to the lack of magic items - everything will be fine.

 

[Terwox]

Not following the magic item guidelines makes the game a lot less enjoyable for me.

I've played with quite a few DM's that don't understand the repercussions of not giving out magic items, but did it anyway. 18th level character with 16k gold of items I had. It wasn't fun doing nothing compared to the druid who had shapechange, etc.

Yes, it's nicer if you earn the items... but, it doesn't mean the game will be enjoyable until the balance of power between PC's is addressed. The cost outweighs the benefits a lot in my opinion.

Hypersmurf's method seems pretty sound by the way.

 

[airwalkrr]

If I run D&D, I believe my PCs should be on the level as far as wealth goes for two reasons: 1) 3e presumes a level of wealth for the PCs which means they are underpowered if they don't have it and 2) it makes my job easier if they are roughly equivalent in wealth to the expected level because I don't have to tweak the CR and EL rules to make sure I avoid decimating my party.

That said, I never allow PCs to have just whatever they want for the same reason the OP doesn't. Synergy is too easy in 3e and too prone to abuse. Although I am good about making sure the PCs are at an appropriate wealth level, I tightly control what items I allow into my game, i.e. those purchasable in magic shops and found in treasure. I don't mind including items that I know one character will really like, but I don't play the synergy game. It makes the game unfun in my opinion when your character is so optimized you only fail saves or miss your opponent on a 1.