D&D 5E (2024) [+] What does a non-spellcaster Psion need/look like?

[Zardnaar]

splitting arcane arcane and divine was in the 2024 play test. And rejected. There is too much overlap, and has been since 1st edition, for dividing magic in this way whilst retaining the essential D&D feel.

Certainly, if you stripped out all the spells related to mind control, divination and moving objects from other classes then you could force a space for the psion, but that would go down like a lead balloon with people who like those classes that are getting their stuff taken away, especially when they don’t want psionics messing with their fantasy.

One thing that has been constant about psionics since 1st edition is it’s optional. Which means the game needs to work perfectly well without it.

This. I don't psions but I don't think i want them gore.

Its always been a bolted on system and to different between editions.

Only version I've really liked was 3.5.

 

[Alas]

I really, really liked the 3.5e "psionic focus" mechanic. The psionic character establishes their focus to acquire a persistent benefit, like a speed bonus or short range telepathy. They can then expend their focus for a special effect: the speed bonus becomes a mighty jump, the telepathy becomes a mental attack. Expending the focus ends the persistent benefit, and it costs an action (of varying degree) to reestablish focus.

I liked that method because it allows round to round choices, it's fairly intuitive, and the gain/lose focus metaphor feels psionic to me. I imagine that in an extended, more robust class based around that mechanic, a psion or psychic warrior would have different options for how many foci they could maintain, how they regain focus, and so on. (Hm, a psionic leader who can transfer focus to other allies? Psi-crystal pets that can hold focus for you? /brainstorming.)

 

[EzekielRaiden]

I really, really liked the 3.5e "psionic focus" mechanic. The psionic character establishes their focus to acquire a persistent benefit, like a speed bonus or short range telepathy. They can then expend their focus for a special effect: the speed bonus becomes a mighty jump, the telepathy becomes a mental attack. Expending the focus ends the persistent benefit, and it costs an action (of varying degree) to reestablish focus.

I liked that method because it allows round to round choices, it's fairly intuitive, and the gain/lose focus metaphor feels psionic to me. I imagine that in an extended, more robust class based around that mechanic, a psion or psychic warrior would have different options for how many foci they could maintain, how they regain focus, and so on. (Hm, a psionic leader who can transfer focus to other allies? Psi-crystal pets that can hold focus for you? /brainstorming.)

Are you familiar with Dreamscarred Press? They did their own PF1e update to psionics which built on this principle.

 

[Desdichado]

I'm not sure what you mean by a spellcaster psion. Was the 3e psion and wilder a spellcasting class? Because I liked psionics quite a bit in 3e. So much so that I even ran a game where magic was replaced by psionics. But not because I thought psions were spellcasters.

 

[CreamCloud0]

I'm not sure what you mean by a spellcaster psion. Was the 3e psion and wilder a spellcasting class? Because I liked psionics quite a bit in 3e. So much so that I even ran a game where magic was replaced by psionics. But not because I thought psions were spellcasters.

by spellcaster psion i think they pretty much just mean a 'psion' who's mechanics are just those of a regular caster's with a themed list, maybe with some tweaked mechanics for them like metamagic.

like how some people consider aberrant mind sorcerer enough to count as a 'psion'.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

by spellcaster psion i think they pretty much just mean a 'psion' who's mechanics are just those of a regular caster's with a themed list, maybe with some tweaked mechanics for them like metamagic.

like how some people consider aberrant mind sorcerer enough to count as a 'psion'.

Right, but what really is "a spell?" Because if we have discrete powers that have clearly defined effects then that to me is "a spell" even if we call it something else.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

Right, but what really is "a spell?" Because if we have discrete powers that have clearly defined effects then that to me is "a spell" even if we call it something else.

Frankly, I find this silly at best, and it looks pretty dang disingenuous from where I'm sitting.

That is, it seems quite obvious to me that spells are very different things from augmentable powers. Yes, 3e (uniquely) did put psionic powers on a 1-to-9 level system like spells, but psionics were still different from spells--in several ways.

The spellcaster psion we're going to get in 5.5e is, quite literally, almost entirely identical to a wizard. It's not just "well these things kind of function like spells". They literally are almost exclusively Wizard spells, just with a (very, very slight) bent toward mentalism stuff.

Like, why on earth should a psion get Abi-Dalzim's horrid wilting? Why would they get polymorph? Eyebite? Power word fortify?

Several of these are simply filler to ensure that certain checkboxes are ticked. They have nothing to do with supporting the theme, developing psionic abilities, or exploring the design space. Even some of the brand-new spells are like this, like bleeding darkness!

Yes, psionic abilities--if they are done exactly as they were in 3e--will have some kind of similarity to spells. But if that's the tack you want to take, then Battle Master maneuvers are spells too, because those are discrete powers with clearly defined effects.

Broadening "spell" to mean literally any defined mechanical ability ever sounds like a pretty bad definition of "spell" when we have several characteristics that are specific to "spells" and not shared by other kinds of ability, supernatural or not.

Like, NGL, this feels like openly trying to subvert the [+] thread by saying "well since all abilities are effectively spells anyway, you're wrong for not wanting spells".

 

[Yaarel]

This is sort of a prelude to future musings, looking to survey the field rather than debate per se. What do you think a Psion needs, if they are not, in any way, a spellcaster?

Please note the [+], if you are genuinely and entirely of the opinion that a spellcaster Psion is the correct path to pursue, or if you think a non-spellcaster Psion is unnecessary, unhelpful, unlikely, counterproductive, etc., etc., then while I recognize your opinion as valid, it's not constructive for this thread, and only going to result in "NUH-UH!" "UH-HUH!" slap-fights. I've had my fill of those as of late.

I of course have my own ideas, but I'd prefer to take a back seat and hear what others have to say for a while first. So--tell me your non-spell-based Psion ideas, or expectations, or desires, or vague formless design notions, or whatever! Doesn't need to be hyper-specific.

Different editions of D&D have different player options for psionics: 1e feats, 2e noncaster Psionicist, 3e fullcaster Psion, 4e power source.

5e now has the 1e feats and 4e power source. Happily, the 3e fullcaster Psion looks to finally be official.

If one squints, one might see the 5e psionic subclasses, like Psi Warrior Fighter and Soul Knife Thief, as dividing up the 2e noncaster Psionicist across different classes. But the 2e Psionicist as a proper base class remains nowhere on the horizon.

The noncaster Psionicist needs to fulfill a niche. There is an important one, that of a "simple" mage, that remains missing from 5e. The "beat-stick" Champion Fighter is the go-to for a simple martial. Casters are complex with many decision points, both to build and to play. To intend a noncaster class, is also an opportunity to create a go-to simple mage: easy to build and easy to play.

Superman is a "simple mage". He only has a handful of magic powers: airy flight, earthy man-of-steel strength, fiery laser beam eyes, icy breath, and ethereal x-ray vision. He is easy to build and easy to play. Yet he is one of the most powerful superheroes in the genre.

A noncaster Psionicist with a handful of nonspell psionic powers is effectively the "superhero" class.

The psionic power source can plausibly accomplish any effect, any psi power. I prefer, to emphasize prescience-spacetime-teleportation, shapeshifting-healing, telekinesis-force, telepathy-enchantment, and illusion-forceaugmented-constructs. I prefer to deemphasize other effects like elementalism and planar-summoning.

Whatever psi powers are decided for the Psionicist class and its subclasses, they can be played simply and effectively.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

Happily, the 3e fullcaster Psion looks to finally be official.

Happily for you, maybe.

Superman is a "simple mage". He only has a handful of magic power: airy flight, earthy man-of-steel strength, fiery laser beam eyes, icy breath, and ethereal x-ray vision. He is easy to build and easy to play. Yet he is one of the most powerful superheroes in the genre.

A noncaster Psionicist with a handful of nonspell psionic powers is effectively the "superhero" class.

The psionic power source can plausibly accomplish any effect, any psi power. I prefer, to emphasize prescience-spacetime-teleportation, shapeshifting-healing, telekinesis, telepathy-enchantment, and illusion-force-constructs. I prefer to deemphasize other effects like elementalism and planar-summoning.

Whatever psi powers are decided on for the Psionicist class and its subclasses, they can be played simply and effectively.

But this is much more useful.

 

[Yaarel]

Happily for you, maybe.


But this is much more useful.

I intended both.