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What does GNS mean?

GMSkarka said:
The Forge has, according to the main forum page, 3801 registered users. Figure about a third of those are hardcore. Not a bad sales number...

Well, I don't think that such a calculation is valid. I you calculated the sales figures of d20 products in a similar way from the registered users of ENWorld, the d20 companies would be happy :D.

Don't forget that the Forge serves also as a board for smaller games. I go there because they have a HeroQuest section and not because of game theories ;).

Larcen said:
Also, I would embrace this whole G/N/S thing if more people could agree on what it all actually means. From reading this thread, it looks like they don't.

I think the point is that everybody tries to take some applicable tools out of the theory. In principle, the example I made with D&D in this thread does not really fit the theory as written, either, so I'm guilty as charged ;). However, I also like the much hated "GNS triangle" for a simple, one-look characterization of a game. You can be assured though that I am aware of the fact that this is just an idealized approximation with errors in the tens of percents if you consider how a game is actually played by a specific gaming group.
 

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Turjan said:
Well, I don't think that such a calculation is valid. I you calculated the sales figures of d20 products in a similar way from the registered users of ENWorld, the d20 companies would be happy :D.

Remember though: You have to spread the ENWorld numbers over every single D20 producer, from WotC down to one-man PDF operations. The calculation may be more valid that you're assuming.

Turjan said:
Don't forget that the Forge serves also as a board for smaller games. I go there because they have a HeroQuest section and not because of game theories ;).

Right--which is why I only assumed a third of the number as "hardcore"--by which I mean the ones that have bought into the whole "Cult of Ron" thing, and will stop drinking the kool-aid only long enough to buy the next Adept Press release, and to vehemently defend The Forge on other internet fora.
 

GMSkarka said:
I'd hardly call name recognition, and a website full of loyal (and in some cases zealous) followers a "meagre or non-existent reward."

Really? I had name recognition and an organization full of zealous followers for about 7 years. Trust me. It's a meagre/non-existent reward.
 
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IMHO, I think that one of the problems with GNS/GDS is that, though the intent of the author may be to provide a useful insight, view, or theory on a particular element (whether it's games, gaming, gamers, etc.), the effect that the work has on some readers may be more negative/detrimental. Though the author may intend that his work provides a better understanding of different methods of gaming, the effect the work may have on some readers is to convince or support a notion that a particular method of gaming is superior to other forms of games (or, to a greater/more far-fetched extent, that certain types of gamers are superior to others).

That's the trick with communication. Though the author may intend to provide 1 meaning in a work, the audience can derive many meanings from that work & not just the 1 that the author was going for.

As for some gamers thinking that 1 form of gaming is superior to others; well, that's personal opinion reflecting bias. And it's not uncommon--pretty much every aspect of human life has this at some point. It's just another incarnation of the "us & them" mentality that people show time & again. It shows up when Americans make distinctions about being a Northerner or a Southerner, a New Yorker or a Bostonian, from Uptown or from Downtown, from a particular street or neighborhood, etc. It shows up when people make distinctions about being Christian or Jewish or Muslim or Buddhist or Hindu or etc., and then continues to make distinctions about their own group/set (like a Christian focusing on whether someone's Catholic, Protestant, Baptist, Lutheran, Methodist, etc.; or a Muslim focusing on if someone's Shi'ite or Sunni; etc.). It shows up with categorizing someone as male or female, & then going into other details such as sexual preference, degree of sexual activity, whether the person fits into the mold of a "typical" person of that kind (like a "typical man" or "typical woman", much less a typical person as defined by their culture), etc.

And it shows up in our hobbies, too. Sports fans who favor a particular sport (baseball, football, soccer, hockey, rugby, golf, etc.), & then a particular team/player in that sport (like Tiger Woods, Boston Red Sox, Tim Duncan on the San Antonio Spurs, etc.). Comic book collectors who favor a particular company, like Marvel, DC, Dark Horse, Image, Devil's Due Press, or some indyh/underground line, & then focus on particular titles, & even then particular characters from those titles, or particular artists or writers who worked on those titles.

And, it definitely shows up in gaming. For some, gamers aren't just gamers: they're either D&D players, White Wolf players, GURPS players, LARPers, etc. And it keeps going from there: D&D players can & are categorized by the edition they play/use, the campaign setting they use, even what supplements, house rules, or other details that could be applied to them.

Hey, it's okay to have preferences--but it's not okay to view or treat others as inferior because they just don't happen to share your views or opinions. There's enough of that going on in the world, already. We don't need to add to the headache.

If the GDS/GNS view (or at least how it's currently presented/expressed) is proving to cause more division and elitism amongst its readers (& its adherents), rather than understanding and a expansion into a different viewpoint, then it's safe to say that it may need to be expressed differently, in order to improve the chances that its intended message comes through clearly.
 

GMSkarka said:
Right--which is why I only assumed a third of the number as "hardcore"--by which I mean the ones that have bought into the whole "Cult of Ron" thing, and will stop drinking the kool-aid only long enough to buy the next Adept Press release, and to vehemently defend The Forge on other internet fora.

Then there's folks like me who'll badmouth the joint at the drop of a hat.

Who has a hat?
 


AFGNCAAP said:
Though the author may intend that his work provides a better understanding of different methods of gaming, the effect the work may have on some readers is to convince or support a notion that a particular method of gaming is superior to other forms of games (or, to a greater/more far-fetched extent, that certain types of gamers are superior to others).
Except that in the case of both GNS and GDS the author(s) did believe that a particular method of gaming was superior. With GNS, not only do Ron and his minions believe that in order for a game to be any good it must be either pure G or pure N, they also contend that S is inferior to both G and N. The creators of GDS on the other hand, thought that D and S were superior to G*. So it's not surprising that the reader comes away with that view that one is better than the other, given that's what the author actually intended.

*To be fair, although when the theory was created no one on rec.advocacy was a supporter of gamism, the actual presentation of the theory (in the rec.advocacy faq I believe) does not hold any one strand to be superior.
 

Hmmm... well, after all this debate... I have determined that I just don't get it. ;)

I guess I lack the intelligence to compute what this theory is attempting to state.

I say we ENWorlders come up with our own theory on rpg design, on rpg gaming, and try and get Robin Laws in on the work :D Does anybody think he would help us? If he's not available, so what, we can do it.
 

Acid_crash said:
I say we ENWorlders come up with our own theory on rpg design, on rpg gaming.

The question remains, though, why would we want to do that? A cookbook for designing the game of games that makes all others dispensable? Founding a new company that will replace all other game companies, because the game based on this theory will strike all gamers with undivided awe?

;)

P.S.: Robin Laws is busy with writing the "Dungeon Master's Guide II". Let's see what he will come up with :).
 

Was a double-post, but I'll take the opportunity.

IMHO, people trying to convince others that 1 method of fun is much more better than another method of fun are wasting their breath & brain energy (though the process of doing so may be fun to them).

Personally, I find problems with gamers first, and games second. I know there's different kinds of games out there that I may not enjoy, but that doesn't mean those games shouldn't be available to anyone else. However, despite what game I play, whether I prefer it or not, there'll be gamers out there that I can't get along with. Some may be in the "G" camp, others in the "N" or "D" camps, and others in the "S" camp, but despite these fundamental differences of styles, I still don't get along with them.

I think, for the most part, it's because they represent the extreme view of each of those sorts/styles of gaming--extreme to the point of alienating themselves from other players, much less driving away new players.
 
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