What does orc blood do for halforcs?

[nharwell]

Half-Orcs would almost make an adequate race if it weren't for Dwarves. Dwarves are easily the best (standard) race for fighter-types; Half-Orcs don't even come close....

 

[Spatzimaus]

Yep. Unbalanced stats, Darkvision, and a racial "ability" that's more a hindrance than anything.

Oh, but they're just as good as any other character race, and there's no need to improve them in the revision.

Well, I've never had much of a problem with the unbalanced stats part, since I do agree that +2 STR goes a LONG way, while -2 CHA is really minor. I'd generally prefer Darkvision to Low-Light Vision, but it varies with the circumstance. And, it's easy for the DM to add Orc-only items to a campaign.
But, IMC, we did the following for Half-Orcs:

1> They get Low-Light Vision (x2) in addition to the Darkvision. It's a relatively minor thing, but it's amazing how often it's come up.
2> We added a feat that turns their Darkvision into something resembling the Vigilance psionic power: your Darkvision still lets you see 10' even in magical darkness, dust, underwater, etc.
3> If they have a WIS of 11+ they can take the Minor Scent feat (which gives a scent-like ability, but much shorter range and higher DCs); then, they can take the full Scent as another feat.

These are relatively minor alterations, but between them they turn Half-Orcs into the ultimate scout. In general using Feats to fix a problem isn't a good solution, but some of these would be a little too good for a consistent racial ability. With these changes IMC, Half-Orc Rangers (and Horizon Walkers) have become popular enough that we'll probably switch the favored class; when one of these guys is after you, you'll never get away. I suppose instead of the optional Feats you could just give all Half-Orcs the Track feat for free, and leave them as Barbarians, but that's less fun.

The point is, give Half-Orcs a niche. If their niche is to be the brute-force fighter types, then they need more combat-related bonuses (like all those attack/AC bonuses races like Dwarves get), because what they get now just doesn't cut it. And for the brute-force types, we already had an ECL 0 version of the Half-Ogre in our world (+4 STR, among other things), so everyone is happy.

 

[Viktyr Gehrig]

The point is, give Half-Orcs a niche. If their niche is to be the brute-force fighter types, then they need more combat-related bonuses (like all those attack/AC bonuses races like Dwarves get), because what they get now just doesn't cut it. And for the brute-force types, we already had an ECL 0 version of the Half-Ogre in our world (+4 STR, among other things), so everyone is happy.

The problem, the way I see it is, Half Orcs have their niche-- melee-- but, unlike other characters, are significantly penalized in such a way that they can only play within their niche, as attempting to play a Half Orc against type is suicide.

Combine that with the fact that Half Orcs are not even the best option within their own niche, and you have a distinctly useless race.

I've already house ruled the Half Orc to my satisfaction for my own games, which involved making Half Orcs a more generalized "hybrid" race (Favored Class: Any), instead of the specialized "melee" savage race, and then giving them bonuses specifically related to survival-- Toughness as a bonus feat and racial bonuses to saves vs. poison and disease. I replaced the "savage" niche with full-blooded Orcs, as from the MM but with Toughness and the saving throw bonuses added.

My main complaint is that this rather obvious imbalance was ignored by the design team, and the explanations I've heard for it ("they're a simple race to be used by beginners") is rather unsatisfactory. Since I've been a fan of Half Orcs since 1e, I find this particularly frustrating, especially since they were omitted entirely from 2e.

 

[pawsplay]

I think +2 Str is probably balanced by -2 Int alone. I'm not really sure they should have a Cha penalty; despite being hulking brutes, I can see a Half-Orc being crafty or intimidating.

That said, I've seen plenty of half-orcs. The +2 Str is nice enough that people are often willing to overlook the imbalance in their design. They make sturdy Clerics. Still, it seems they should have the human multiclassing advantage, like Half-Elves. I can imagine almost as many Half-Orc fighters as barbarians. I think WotC can, too; the Harbinger line of miniatures has a LE Half-Orc Fighter in it.

 

[Voadam]

Well, I've never had much of a problem with the unbalanced stats part, since I do agree that +2 STR goes a LONG way, while -2 CHA is really minor.

The point is, give Half-Orcs a niche. If their niche is to be the brute-force fighter types, then they need more combat-related bonuses (like all those attack/AC bonuses races like Dwarves get), because what they get now just doesn't cut it.

I agree that Strength is probably worth both the Int and Charisma, all they give up is a single skill and charisma for an offensive combat bonus.

This means they will be detrimented if they want to be wizards, sorcerers, bards or paladins. But they get a melee combat boost applicable to every other class.

As for half orcs vs dwarves, Dwarven bonuses are all defensive except a +1 against orcs and goblins. They get con and poison and magic saves and AC against giants, but these are all defensive. Half orcs do more damage and hit more often. Generally speaking offense is a little better than defense for power purposes.

 

[Spatzimaus]

The problem, the way I see it is, Half Orcs have their niche-- melee-- but, unlike other characters, are significantly penalized in such a way that they can only play within their niche, as attempting to play a Half Orc against type is suicide.

I wouldn't take it to that extreme. Half-Orcs do well as Clerics (they don't turn undead that well, though). They're great for Druids and Rangers too. Saying that Half-Orcs are in a "melee" niche is like saying that all Elves are just archers. Sure, you can specialize in that, but it's hardly the only thing you're capable of. Not all Elves are Rangers, and not all Half-Orcs are Barbarians or Fighters.

(In fact, in 3.5E the Half-Orc makes a GREAT Ranger. Losing one skill point from low INT doesn't mean much when you get 6 or more per level, and being able to mix in one level of Barbarian for the speed boost is nice.)

Besides, when I talked about their "niche", I didn't mean any one specific class or combat style. I meant, they need some sort of small, generic boost, like the Halfling saving throw, Dwarf defensive bonuses and armor movement, Elf weapon proficiencies and Listen/Spot bonuses, and so on. Each race gets these minor abilities that make them a desirable choice for almost any class.
Half-Orcs just don't get any bonuses like this. The only thing they have going for them that other races don't get is the high STR.

So, it'd be more appropriate to say that unlike other races, Half-Orcs have nothing particularly desirable if you don't want to use melee. This isn't the same as saying they can only do melee.
Someone who's going to play a Druid might consider the Half-Orc, but then will probably decide to go with an Elf or something instead. The process repeats no matter what class you look at. Sure, they make great Barbarians, but so did my Half-Elf, and she had plenty of other neat abilities.

That's why I suggested improving their senses a bit. That way, there'd be one general bonus that no other race duplicates, so that no matter what class you were considering there'd always be a reason to keep the Half-Orcs in mind. Practically every class would benefit from having both Low-Light and Darkvision, even if it's not a balance-breaking ability.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Someone who's going to play a Druid might consider the Half-Orc, but then will probably decide to go with an Elf or something instead.

I'm playing a half-orc druid and enjoying it, but it's definitely a sub-optimal choice at later levels.

You're liable to spend most of your combats in a Wildshape, so your Str bonus is irrelevant, but your Int and Cha penalties remain...

-Hyp.