D&D 5E [+]What does your "complex fighter" look like?

[TwoSix]

And along those lines, IMO a Hero is elevated by what the have done, not by a "power source" that already makes them special.

I think it is fine for people who want this, but I know I wouldn't. Just to be clear, I am simply stating the opposing view, not challenging the validity of your idea.

I think @NotAYakk indicated that you could also gain new power sources as part of a diegetic process. You could simply remove the "Hero Source" as a level 1 choice.

Although generic D&D is great for "Zero-to-Hero" narratives (especially OSR stuff), it's not nearly as strong at diegetic character growth unless you use some NSR material instead (like a Knave or Into the Odd).

 

[TwoSix]

The single best iteration of the "complex martial" was the 3.5 Warblade from Book of Nine Swords. It doesn't have to be exactly equivalent, but having access to about one maneuver per level, picked from a pool of maneuvers about 6-7 times that size (around 120-140 maneuvers by level 20) is the level of complexity I'm looking for.

 

[CreamCloud0]

The only bad thing about something like this is it detracts from the experience for people who want to play the Zero to Hero journey.


And along those lines, IMO a Hero is elevated by what the have done, not by a "power source" that already makes them special.

I think it is fine for people who want this, but I know I wouldn't. Just to be clear, I am simply stating the opposing view, not challenging the validity of your idea.

Agreed, a supernatural ‘power source’ isn’t something a fighter should be forced to take, sure it can be an option for them but not inherent, plus supernatural sources would most likely outnumber the ‘they’re just that strong and trained’ options very quickly.

Also I’d argue that ‘Hero’ is way too generic and doesn’t necessarily imply any sort of martial fighter

 

[TheSword]

It looks like the Adventures in Rokugan Bushi

• Accruing focus/Battlemaster/skill points at the end of each round of combat
• Ghost of Tsushima style stances which provide a benefit and allow more focus point generation in certain circumstances - like being charged, or taking AOP.
• Techniques/maneuvers/talents that spend focus points to do extraordinary attacks.

I love the fact that it doesn’t just grant spell like abilities to fighters and that the focus point accrual is something that could be unique to fighters. Stances add tactical choice and flexibility.

 

[Horwath]

It looks like the Adventures in Rokugan Bushi

• Accruing focus/Battlemaster/skill points at the end of each round of combat
• Ghost of Tsushima style stances which provide a benefit and allow more focus point generation in certain circumstances - like being charged, or taking AOP.
• Techniques/maneuvers/talents that spend focus points to do extraordinary attacks.

I love the fact that it doesn’t just grant spell like abilities to fighters and that the focus point accrual is something that could be unique to fighters. Stances add tactical choice and flexibility.

this could be applied similar to battlemaster,

when you crit, you regain a dice
when attack crits you, you regain a dice
when you roll a 1 or 20 on a saving throw

 

[AnotherGuy]

One of the things that made the 4E fighter stand out for me was that weapon choice actually mattered because of the feats and powers associated with each weapon type. Axes were less accurate but got bigger crits, spears and polearms were better for tripping and forced movement, swords were more accurate and better for attacks of opportunity (and therefore controlling your opponents' movement), hammers could daze and stun, etc. For a complex fighter, your choice of weapon should have as much an effect on your character's play style as a wizard's choice of spells does.

So a few more weapon traits would be good (our table is busy with that), but the other part of your idea could be married to feats.
Crossbow Expert and Polearm Mastery do a little of what you'd like, we improved on them and added Spear Mastery, Flail Mastery, and Fell-Handed (Axes, Hammers, Mauls). We also have house rules for weapon proficiencies.

Spear Mastery​

Prerequisite: Proficiency in a spear.
Though the spear is a simple weapon to learn, it rewards you for the time you have taken to master it. You gain the following benefits.

• You can set your spear to receive a charge. Using the spear with two-hands, you can take a Ready action to choose a creature you can see that is at least 20 feet away from you. If that creature moves within your spear’s reach on its next turn while charging, you can make a melee attack against it with your spear. On a successful attack, the attack is considered to be a critical hit. You can’t use this ability if the creature used the Disengage action before moving unless you also have the Sentinel feat.
• If you score a critical hit against a creature of your size or smaller, you can use a bonus action to drive your weapon through the creature to impale it. An impaled creature is considered restrained and takes damage equivalent to that of a critical hit at the beginning of your turns until it is no longer impaled. You cannot attack the creature with this weapon until the creature is no longer impaled upon it. The creature can free itself from the impaled condition with a successful opposed Strength check.
• As a bonus action, you can increase your reach with a spear by 5 feet for the rest of your turn.
• Gain 1 weapon proficiency slot.

Flail Mastery​

Prerequisite: Proficiency with a flail, chain or spiked-chain.
The flail is a tricky weapon to use, but you have spent countless hours mastering it. You gain the following benefits:

• As a bonus action on your turn, you can prepare yourself to extend your flail to sweep over or around targets’ shields. Until the end of this turn, your attack rolls with a flail gain a +2 bonus against any target using a shield.
• When you hit with an opportunity attack using a flail against a creature that is one size larger or smaller, the target must succeed on a Strength saving throw (DC 8 + your proficiency bonus + your Strength modifier) or be knocked prone.
• When an opponent misses a melee attack against you by 5 or more, you can either use a reaction to attempt to disarm them, if they were using a weapon, or you may inflict your damage equal to your proficiency bonus.
• Gain 1 weapon proficiency slot.

Fell Handed​

Prerequisite: Proficiency with the battle-axe, dwarvern axe, longaxe, warhammer and/or the maul.
Thanks to extensive practice with these particular weapons, you gain the following benefits:

• Increase your Strength score by 1, to a maximum of 20.
• Whenever you have advantage on a melee attack roll you make with the weapon and hit a creature of the same size or smaller than you, you may automatically knock the target prone if the lower of the two d20 rolls would also hit the target.
• Whenever you have disadvantage on a melee attack roll you make with the weapon, the target takes bludgeoning damage equal to your Strength modifier (minimum of 0) if the attack misses but the higher of the two d20 rolls would have hit.
• If you are wielding the weapon and use the Help action to aid an ally’s melee attack against an opponent with a shield, you knock the target’s shield aside momentarily. The opponent does not benefit from the shield until the beginning of their next turn.
• Gain 1 weapon proficiency slot.

 

[Vaalingrade]

My basics:

• At-Will combat actions that aren't just 'basic attack'.
• Per-Encounter actions.
• Weapon-specific capabilities that reflect weapon mastery.
• non-combat options especially for feats of strength and military skills

Rock bottom:

Battlemaster is the core fighter, subclass from there.

 

[Celebrim]

One thing I find very difficult about this topic is very quickly the conversation gets derailed from talking about why we want a complex fighter.

I think this is because everyone realizes that there is a problem with the fighter and has already attempted some sort of solution to that. So instead of talking about why we want a complex fighter, we end up in an argument of how to accomplish that from a design perspective.

And to be frank, some of those already presenting design ideas aren't in fact talking about why they want a complex fighter. They are already saying they don't want a complex fighter or that a complex fighter is a bad idea or that the very idea of a fighter class is a bad idea. And that I feel strongly goes against the spirit of a '+' thread.

 

[Micah Sweet]

yeah since 2/3 of the game isn't combat, and the classes that specialize in non combat things are still good at combat what's fair is fair

The game as played by a good many tables, especially places like conventions and AL but also including many home tables, is decidedly NOT 2/3 not-combat. Certainly the rules aren't presented that way (and never have been).

 

[Micah Sweet]

The essentials fighters were great, I sometimes wonder if 4e would have had wider appeal if they had started 4e with the essential classes.

I strongly suspect it would have, since presentation was a frequently cited complaint.