D&D 5E [+]What does your "complex fighter" look like?

[Maxperson]

wait what?!?! the wizard at 9th level gets 4 cantrips, 4 1st level spells 3 2nd level spells 3 3rd level spells 3 4th level spells and a 5th levels spell arcane recover and 2 subclass features for a total of 21 class features
the fighter gets fighting style, second wind, action surge extra attack, indomitable, and 2 subclass features and a bonus ASI/feat for a total of 8

in what world does a fighter have MORE?
even if we take the spells per day out and just sat 1st level spells 2nd level spells 3rd level spells 4th level spells, 5th level spell, Cantrips, arcane recovery and 2 subclass features that's 9!

In the world that you count the fighter's subclass, too.

The Battle Master subclass ability comes with, at 8th level 5 superiority dice that can be used to pick from 5 maneuvers and do extra damage. That's 5 uses, since you are counting spell slots separately. Fighters also have 3 subclass abilities at 9th level. That brings Battle Masters up to 14 compared to 21 for the wizard, 4 of which are cantrips which match fighter's attacks or something else really minor. So really 14 to 17 and 1st level spells aren't much better than cantrips.

The strength of a wizard is not in doing the roles of others, but rather in the versatility that allows it to fill the gaps left by the other classes.

 

[Undrave]

NOTES: * Although part of Spellcasting, it is different from other Ritual Spells, allowing Wizards to cast spells without expending a spell slot. IMO this makes it powerful enough to be a separate feature from Spellcasting.

What makes it different from the Cleric or Druid is that the Wizard doesn't have to prepare their Rituals, they just keep them in their book, meaning they basically know extra spells.

 

[Maxperson]

They are NOT based on in game fiction (or no action surge, anyone coulld sneak attack, anyone could rage) so the entire argument falls apart.

I don't agree with that. They can still be based in the fiction. For example, anyone can hit a vital spot(critical hit), but rogues train to do it reliably(sneak attack) and sometimes do even better(crit+sneak attack). Fighters learn to tap deep into the inner energy that all people have and draw it forth to get an extra action(supernatural ability) that other classes can't.

The argument doesn't fall apart, but it would take a little bit of work to fit these abilities into the fiction in a way that makes sense.

 

[Maxperson]

FWIW, this is how I see the break-down:

WIZARD

1. Spellcasting
2. Ritual Spells*
3. Arcane Recovery
4. ASI (x5)
5. Arcane Tradition Feature (x5)
6. Spell Mastery**
7. Signature Spell***

NOTES: * Although part of Spellcasting, it is different from other Ritual Spells, allowing Wizards to cast spells without expending a spell slot. IMO this makes it powerful enough to be a separate feature from Spellcasting.

** At-will 1st- AND 2nd-level spells could be counted separately.

*** Two extra 3rd-level slots IMO could be counted separately.

COUNT: Depending on how you count those options, you have 15-17 features.

FIGHTER

1. Fighting Style
2. Second Wind
3. Action Surge
4. Martial Archetype (x5)
5. ASI (x7)
6. Extra Attack
7. Indomitable

COUNT: 17 features.

By my count (anyway) they are fairly even...

UNLESS...

If you want to count access to each spell level (9 in total) instead of 1 (spellcasting), then I would also at least count Extra Attack as 3 instead of 1, but either way the Wizards jump to 23-25 vs. the Fighter at 19.

The fighting styles need to be better, even if it's just to improve them at specific level intervals to boost fighters.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

In the world that you count the fighter's subclass, too.

i did go back and check it's in there

The Battle Master subclass ability comes with, at 8th level 5 superiority dice that can be used to pick from 5 maneuvers and do extra damage. That's 5 uses, since you are counting spell slots separately. Fighters also have 3 subclass abilities at 9th level. That brings Battle Masters up to 14 compared to 21 for the wizard, 4 of which are cantrips which match fighter's attacks or something else really minor. So really 14 to 17 and 1st level spells aren't much better than cantrips.

The strength of a wizard is not in doing the roles of others, but rather in the versatility that allows it to fill the gaps left by the other classes.

wizards get every attack a fighter gets

 

[Maxperson]

i did go back and check it's in there

And yet you shorted them on 5 options.

wizards get every attack a fighter gets

Via a cantrip's additional damage, yes. Of course, if they miss it's 0 damage, where if a fighter misses he just keeps on attacking.

Only bladesinger(that I can think of) gets a 2nd attack, and none of them get a 3rd or 4th, so where are you getting this from.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

And yet you shorted them on 5 options.

no i didn't go back and look at the post I counted every class feature every subclass type and every attack
I did only go to 9th level

Via a cantrip's additional damage, yes. Of course, if they miss it's 0 damage,

wait did I miss an option for a fighter to get damage on a miss?

Only bladesinger(that I can think of) gets a 2nd attack, and none of them get a 3rd or 4th, so where are you getting this from.

no one gets a 3rd by 9th when we were talking about1f1s

 

[Maxperson]

no i didn't go back and look at the post I counted every class feature every subclass type and every attack
I did only go to 9th level

"the fighter gets fighting style, second wind, action surge extra attack, indomitable, and 2 subclass features and a bonus ASI/feat for a total of 8"

Where are the 5 options allowed from Maneuvers?

wait did I miss an option for a fighter to get damage on a miss?

Fighters get multiple chances to hit, unlike wizards who miss completely with their cantrips.

no one gets a 3rd by 9th when we were talking about1f1s

Wizards do not in fact get every attack a fighter gets. One very specific subclass does, but then falls behind.

 

[DND_Reborn]

What makes it different from the Cleric or Druid is that the Wizard doesn't have to prepare their Rituals, they just keep them in their book, meaning they basically know extra spells.

LOL yeah I know, that is what happens when I post without reviewing it because dinner is on the table.

I'll fix it and thanks!

 

[Maxperson]

LOL yeah I know, that is what happens when I post without reviewing it because dinner is on the table.

I'll fix it and thanks!

Dinner is important! More than stuff on an internet forum, that's for sure.