D&D 5E [+]What does your "complex fighter" look like?

[DND_Reborn]

The fighting styles need to be better, even if it's just to improve them at specific level intervals to boost fighters.

I agree.

 

[Maxperson]

I agree.

View attachment 260558View attachment 260559

That's really good, but to be in the running with spells it needs to be automatic. Having to spend three style choices to get there is too much of a cost I think. Basically intermediate at like 6th and advanced at 12th or something. And maybe have a supreme level that enters at 18th.

 

[Baron Opal II]

Do people consider the maneuvers displayed in Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon mundane, uncanny, or magical? Is there anything there that people would consider outside the theme of a fighter, or placed only in a subclass?

Also, is there only mundane and magical, or can uncanny be a thing (not a magical action but something repeatably statistically improbable)?

Is the Green Destiny effectively a magic item, or perhaps something that only an experienced fighter can get the most use out of?

 

[DND_Reborn]

That's really good, but to be in the running with spells it needs to be automatic. Having to spend three style choices to get there is too much of a cost I think. Basically intermediate at like 6th and advanced at 12th or something. And maybe have a supreme level that enters at 18th.

You get them automatically at 8th, 12th, and 16th levels. ASIs (not shown on the table below are at 4th, 8th, 12th, 16th, and 19th as usual, but those are now under Character Levels instead of class levels.

Beginning at 2nd level, you also learn BM maneuvers, up to 4. We also altered and moved Indomitable to 4th level

 

[DND_Reborn]

Do people consider the maneuvers displayed in Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon mundane, uncanny, or magical? Is there anything there that people would consider outside the theme of a fighter, or placed only in a subclass?

I never cared much for CTHD, myself, but in D&D terms I would consider much of the "wire-fu" in the movie as "uncanny" to "magical", certainly not mundane!!! I put it on the same level as Hercules/Xena (done more tastefully, of course!), which I consider mostly tier 4 (perhaps some tier 3?).

Also, is there only mundane and magical, or can uncanny be a thing (not a magical action but something repeatably statistically improbable)?

I believe what you term uncanny to me would be something plausible in mundane views, but insanely incredible. Something like a fighter jumping 60 feet with a running start. Maybe "Matrix" level stuff?

IRL we see people do insanely incredible things, so I can easily envision such capabilities possible in a fantasy setting without resorting to it being magic. Now, having a fighter jumping too the moon or something would most definitely be beyond that scope!

Is the Green Destiny effectively a magic item, or perhaps something that only an experienced fighter can get the most use out of?

I don't recall that, was it the sword or something in the movie?

 

[Maxperson]

You get them automatically at 8th, 12th, and 16th levels. ASIs (not shown on the table below are at 4th, 8th, 12th, 16th, and 19th as usual, but those are now under Character Levels instead of class levels.

Beginning at 2nd level, you also learn BM maneuvers, up to 4. We also altered and moved Indomitable to 4th level

View attachment 260563

That's a much better fighter class. Still lacking in exploration and social, but much better in what fighters do best.

I'm really curious, though, about why you reduced the fighters' proficiency with armor and weapons that way. That seems very reminiscent of 2e where fighters could only use a few weapons and had to hope to find good ones that they were proficient with.

 

[DND_Reborn]

That's a much better fighter class. Still lacking in exploration and social, but much better in what fighters do best.

The revamp of Action Surge allows for some additional exploration IMO, but otherwise we wanted the fighter to focus their bonus ASI/feats on exploration and social IF the player wanted to. I could see adding a bit more, but then I would pull back on some of the combat features to balance it out (not a lot, mind you!).

I'm really curious, though, about why you reduced the fighters' proficiency with armor and weapons that way. That seems very reminiscent of 2e where fighters could only use a few weapons and had to hope to find good ones that they were proficient with.

That is because we've implemented a more robust background system, which adds armor and weapon proficiencies in many cases.

For example, a fighter with a "Militant" (e.g. soldier-type) background would have all armor and shields, an 5-6 weapons IIRC.

But yes, individual weapons are preferred by us over the broad simplified groups in 5E.

 

[Micah Sweet]

same you seem more and more to just be picking and picking to try to 'get points' somehow

I feel the same

you didn't understand mine. I did NOT mention or even hint at real world religions... you in response named 2. I didn't make it at all about religion YOU DID.

my response is clear DON'T TURN TALK ABOUT MAGIC IN THE GAME INTO ONE ABOUT REAL WORLD BELIFE AND RELIGION... no real world religion that I know of believe you can cast magic missile or fireball.

you tried to turn a very clear statement into a religious argument.

sure there are I talk about them all the time. I think you should have both (or well 3 but not important) options on level up.

the system tells you

again it's not ME saying so it's teh system. Come and Get it wasn't... it was a martial Exploit, Green FLame Blade is it is an arcane spell

the word obviously is the problem... it's YOU making a choice and deciding we must all agree.

I see no reason that "Once per day/long rest you automatically hit with an attack" has to be supernatural at all (again it seems to be the robin hood ability

wrong, it's how the fiction handles it that matters, those lables are the fiction.

A jedi uses the force to pull a weapon from an enemy's hand
Harry Potter casts a spell disarming his opponent
Conan slams his axe down disarming his opponent

1 was the force, 1 was magic, 1 was training, same effect

I mean sure, but no one is suggesting it is... I don't understand this line at all.

but if you had 'a number of times per day equal to your prof you can make a jump and go three times your normal max' special option a fighter could take that doesn't mean they are casting jump.

he hits... he keeps hitting he doesn't miss with his shots... you said any 'auto hit' ability would be magic

yes... he doesn't miss

yes

no he isn't magic he is a protagonist.

in the narrative he doesn't miss. he doesn't have a 'chance of missing' he always gets the shaft and splits the arrow.

davy crocket and robin hood and Odysseus don't use magic... they do bigger then life things (or batman or hawkeye in more modern stories)
no magic... just a hero protagonist training and smart and able to do things amazing

most likely not... I mean if they could why would they need those props and FX?

again, we know in the real world it is staged, and tricks... but we buy into the story of the wrestlers doing these things. All I am asking is that we do the same with fighters.
davy crocket and robin hood and Odysseus don't use magic... they do bigger then life things (or batman or hawkeye in more modern stories)
no magic... just a hero protagonist training and smart and able to do things amazing

nope... I do not see EITHER as a spell. I see it as abstract mechanic vs concreate mechanic but if it isn't magic it isn't magic...

in Call of Cthulhu and some other games there is a roll you can make to rewrite the scene... it isn't magic, your character isn't rewriting the scene (ala bill and ted saying to remember the trash can) it is just the way it always has been... no magic

you asked why everyone can't do everything... because the game is set up so that there are silos of abilities. barbarians rage, not rangers or fighters. if you want to rage you multi into barbarian (or take a multi class feat or something)

that is what I am asking for, to increase the siloed abilities of the fighter.

yes like your bear trap power would be an abstraction.... it wouldn't be 'magically make a trap' it's 'you had the trap' just like if you want to rage you take a level in barbarian...

again you jump from in game to out of game at break neck speeds to try to make your points... I don't think you are doing it well.

You asked why not anyone could rage. I explained why.

yes and no I am trying to show your ideal of how D&D works isn't how D&D worked in any edition I ever played, so i don't understand why you are arguing against increasing thee silo of fighter abilities.

I am showing that we have silo of abilities in classes. They are NOT based on in game fiction (or no action surge, anyone coulld sneak attack, anyone could rage) so the entire argument falls apart.

To be fair, all of your responses indicate a strongly held narrative, 4th ed-centric point of view. Now I understand that you're a fan, and that's fine, but you're espousing a specific gaming philosophy as fact that many gamers don't necessarily share.

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

FWIW, this is how I see the break-down:

WIZARD

1. Spellcasting
2. Ritual Spells*
3. Arcane Recovery
4. ASI (x5)
5. Arcane Tradition Feature (x5)
6. Spell Mastery**
7. Signature Spell***

NOTES: * Although part of Spellcasting, it is different from other Ritual Spells, allowing Wizards to cast spells without preparing them. IMO this makes it powerful enough to be a separate feature from Spellcasting.

** At-will 1st- AND 2nd-level spells could be counted separately.

*** Two extra 3rd-level slots IMO could be counted separately.

COUNT: Depending on how you count those options, you have 15-17 features.

FIGHTER

1. Fighting Style
2. Second Wind
3. Action Surge
4. Martial Archetype (x5)
5. ASI (x7)
6. Extra Attack
7. Indomitable

COUNT: 17 features.

By my count (anyway) they are fairly even...

UNLESS...

If you want to count access to each spell level (9 in total) instead of 1 (spellcasting), then I would also at least count Extra Attack as 3 instead of 1, but either way the Wizards jump to 23-25 vs. the Fighter at 19.

Which do you regard as a feature: the ability to do something new, or when you get to use an ability an additional time?
From here, it looks like the former. So when you pick a Fighting Style or a 1st level spell counts, but you don't count when you get an additional action surge or your 3rd 5th level spell slot for example?

 

[Baron Opal II]

I never cared much for CTHD, myself, but in D&D terms I would consider much of the "wire-fu" in the movie as "uncanny" to "magical", certainly not mundane!!! I put it on the same level as Hercules/Xena (done more tastefully, of course!), which I consider mostly tier 4 (perhaps some tier 3?).

By tiers you are referring to levels 11-15 and 16-20?

I believe what you term uncanny to me would be something plausible in mundane views, but insanely incredible. Something like a fighter jumping 60 feet with a running start. Maybe "Matrix" level stuff?

Yes, that's my idea. Escher walking I would place, in my nomenclature, preternatural rather than uncanny. But not supernatural or magical, those are spells, boons, magic items, &c. (That's when Trinity was running along the floor and then ran up the wall, almost like she changed gravity's vector.)

I don't recall that, was it the sword or something in the movie?

Yes, the Green Destiny was the sword everyone was after.