What ever happened to just "playing" the game and telling a great story?

[barsoomcore]

whuh?

Ladies and gentlemen: JDJblatherings in the role of Confused Poster Who Didn't Get The Joke (Which Might Possibly Be Because It Wasn't Very Funny, But Never Mind That)

Give him a big hand, everyone!

 

[Satori]

Do me a favor and google "Microlite20".

If DnD were math, 3.5 ed would be Calculus based Physics while Microlite20 is Math Theory.

This is my Scientific Wild Arse Guess as to why DMing/Playing 3.5 ED feels like a chore.

1. Someone told a great fantasy story.
2. Someone wanted to relive that fantasy story.
3. Someone created basic guidelines to make it possible to relive that story.
4. ?????
5. Profit!!!

I have this furry, squishy place in my heart for 1st ED. I don't know why, but 1st ED simply felt magical...while 2nd ED felt REALLY restrictive and seemed to require dozens of houserules.

3rd ED was fun because it seemed designed to put all those houserules into a system that made sense...forming order from chaos.

This seemed great...until you realize that part of the fun of DnD is CHAOS!

To me, DnD is fun when someone can say "I want my Paladin to fall, become evil, and have all of his abilities warped into something twisted and evil!"

We then sit down, discuss what types of abilities he wants and what types of restrictions he'll have...and the show goes on!

Well...3.5 ED took that houseruled class and turned it into a Blackguard...which may or may not fit into the picture my player had for his PC. This forces him to dig around in various splatbooks until he finds a right mix of abilities that fit his concept...

...and so we get a Paladin 4/Rogue 3/Bard 5/Frenzied Berzerker 8.

Le Sigh

I believe the majority of 3.X ED issues stem from the fundamental changes the system, in context, has undergone.

Back in the day, DnD was a place to let your imagination run wild. While you can still do so in 3.X ED, you now must become part mathemetician, part engineer in order to make that imaginitive character moderately functional.

I love 3.X ED. I have nearly all the books, and I still feel that the SPIRIT is still the same. It just seems that the CONTEXT is vastly different than it used to be.

This not a bad thing! It's just different, and it should appeal to a different style of play. Back in the day imagination and creativity ruled the day. Now, you need a definite sense of logic, math, and reason to truly take advantage of the system.

Each system has its place...and I certainly feel that Microlite20 (or any other stripped down, rules bare system) will invigorate your zest for the game.

---

One last thing before my drunken ramblings end.

Do me a favor and give this a shot.

1. Conduct an intro adventure to get the party together and get some chemistry brewing.
2. Eventually lead them to a big city.
3. Put away ALL your notes regarding grand, overarching plot lines.
4. Put a blank sheet of paper in front of you.
5. Ask your players, "What do you do?"

I have DM'd some of the best adventures in over 14 years of gaming by giving complete and utter control to the players. Given the right group, you'll be amazed at the type of ingenuity your players are capable.

In one instance, my players entered a HUGE city at level 3.

By level 10 one was a mayor, one was a criminal lord of the underground thieves guild, another established a traveling circus, and yet another opened a thriving bar. Through their own devices, they started from nothing and created the world...and the GAME...that they wanted...

...and it was IMMENSELY entertaining to be involved in.

 

[WizarDru]

This seemed great...until you realize that part of the fun of DnD FOR MY GROUPis CHAOS!

Fixed that for you.

Well...3.5 ED took that houseruled class and turned it into a Blackguard...which may or may not fit into the picture my player had for his PC. This forces him to dig around in various splatbooks until he finds a right mix of abilities that fit his concept...and so we get a Paladin 4/Rogue 3/Bard 5/Frenzied Berzerker 8.

Why? What happened that prevented you from continuing to use your house-ruled version or creating a new one? The simple existence of a blackguard prestige class? I mean, anti-paladins existed prior to that, but you opted not to use them. How is it 3.x somehow forced you to use a version you didn't like?

The most successful game, character-wise, that I have ever run was done under 3.0/3.5. By the end of six years, the players had guided their destinies and saved the world. One had become guildmaster of a world-spanning mage's guild, another became an immortal guardian of the land, one became a long-awaited champion, another became a figure of myth, one became a guardian of the Prime while another achieved apotheosis.

I agree that you should let you players have freedom...but not every group wants absolute, context-free sandboxes. Some want to have orcs thrust upon them, while others don't want to have to write the campaign themselves. Different groups have different preferences. In my case, I prefer to tell my players "Yes" rather than "No"...but I don't want to tell them "What now?". Those can all be valid choices, but not always for every group.

 

[barsoomcore]

3.5 ED took that houseruled class and turned it into a Blackguard.

I find your lack of knowledge disturbing.

 

[apoptosis]

I don't know about your experience, but, in mine, when I've played in games that don't have xp or loot, the campaigns fizzle after about 10-15 sessions. At least, far shorter than D&D campaigns. Obviously YMMV.

My players really care about story and don't care about Loot unless it makes the story more interesting and minimally about XP.

My players fall far more on the story side than game side. We tend to play more narrativist games though (which have lots of metagaming 'gamist' rules but ones that are oriented to telling a story)

D&D though is a game that rewards players with Loot and XP so will probably have higher percentage of players whose interest in the game leans that way. I think D&D is more amicable to play the game and a story 'happens' (that is meant in a good way).

 

[Oryan77]

Nitpick: No. If I wanted someone else to tell me a story, I'd read a book, or watch a movie. I don't play RPGs to be passively entertained. It is my character, and therefore my story, not the DM's.

Having players that took control like that would be great. But keep in mind that there's plenty of players that just sit there and wait for the DM to hold their hand throughout a story. And on top of that, it doesn't help much when they also nit pick rules and other aspects the OP complained about. It sounds like that's the kind of group the OP has (which I'm in a similar situation).

I would love for the group to help me tell a story. If players were focused on that part of the game then they might have less time to concentrate on nitpicking rules and other things

 

[apoptosis]

Great Gaming is always Fun
Great Story are not necessarily Great Gaming
Therefore Great Story are not necessarily Fun

For me Great Gaming is not possible without a Great Story, it is why I game. Honestly I am not sure what Great Gaming in an RPG really means.

Now i use 'Great Story' probably more loosely than others (it could mean great character interactions, great scenes etc.); For me it doesnt mean that we necessarily created some great novel.

We have actually made a great story with little to no 'gaming' (basically there werent any rules per se) and that was a blast (but rather difficult to do as there was not way to reconcile different particpants conflicting ideas of what should happen).

 

[Rel]

I find your lack of knowledge disturbing.

It's not as disturbing as your lack of ability to bring teh funneh today. Post funnier or I'll have to threadban you.

 

[Satori]

Fixed that for you.



Why? What happened that prevented you from continuing to use your house-ruled version or creating a new one? The simple existence of a blackguard prestige class? I mean, anti-paladins existed prior to that, but you opted not to use them. How is it 3.x somehow forced you to use a version you didn't like?

You'll notice that my player didn't choose the Blackguard Prestige Class, even though it is the epitome of a fallen Paladin. What 3.X ed DID do, however, is put a STANDARD out there for such concepts. In some cases (in my experience), this can shoe horn creativity. I'm not saying it ALWAYS does...but it CAN.

The most successful game, character-wise, that I have ever run was done under 3.0/3.5. By the end of six years, the players had guided their destinies and saved the world. One had become guildmaster of a world-spanning mage's guild, another became an immortal guardian of the land, one became a long-awaited champion, another became a figure of myth, one became a guardian of the Prime while another achieved apotheosis.

Suh-Weet! Sounds like a fun game!

I agree that you should let you players have freedom...but not every group wants absolute, context-free sandboxes. Some want to have orcs thrust upon them, while others don't want to have to write the campaign themselves. Different groups have different preferences. In my case, I prefer to tell my players "Yes" rather than "No"...but I don't want to tell them "What now?". Those can all be valid choices, but not always for every group.

I am in complete agreement with you.

3.X did something wonderful for the game.

It tried VERY hard to create a system of balanced PCs, unlimited options, unlimited custom utility, and solid reliability.

It took that wacky-crazy-cool idea for a PC you were stewing over and gave you the tools to create it with a sense of balance and reason.

To be completely honest, towards the end of 2nd Edition I had completely given up on DnD. I moved on to White Wolf, Palladium, GURPS, etc...

3rd Edition renewed my zest for the game, and (in my not so honest opinion) has done amazing things for the niche DnD community.

That being said, I do believe that (in some games and in my opinion) 3.X ED has the potential to be by far the most difficult, time consuming, and tedious system to DM for.

 

[kigmatzomat]

For me Great Gaming is not possible without a Great Story, it is why I game. Honestly I am not sure what Great Gaming in an RPG really means.

To me a "great gaming" is where six months later the players are hanging out eating pizza and start reminiscing, saying "Man, that was great!" There are too many people with conflicting ideas of what constitutes great gaming to really quantify it. The point of my post was to point out that a game with a great story isn't necessarily a great game. By the same token, a lack of a great story doesn't necessarily mean it isn't a great game.

Look at fiction. Great movies sometimes have relatively lame plots but are still incredibly entertaining. Conversely, a movie with a sucky implementation can ruin a great plot. More often than not, a mediocre plot done incredibly well is better received than an incredible plot with a mediocre implementation.

Plots don't need to be epic stories. At heart, most of RPGs break down to "beat something down/take it's stuff" even in the plot-driven games like WoD where "take it's stuff" can mean servants, territory, social status, or political power.

In other words, french fries are not haute cuisine but most of the world loves tasty fried 'taters. So don't worry about making julienne potatoes au gratin if your players keep coming back for the fries.