What ever happened to spell research?

[frankthedm]

The reason few players research new spells is because some DMs add too many wotc published spells to the casters spell lists. A mistake Wotc encourages in the spell compendium. Why would a player pay to research a spell when the DM just gives it to him? If you want players to research spells, when they ask for a spell from a splat book, you tell them, "You've never heard of that spell before, though you could attempt to research it."

When a player is given a non PHB spell, that’s a 1000gp per spell level value they just got.

Originally Posted by RedFox
I'm just dumb or something, cause I can't find rules for spell research in the DMG. The closest I can find is the spell design guidelines on page 35. While those are useful for introducing spells into a campaign, they don't tell you how a PC researches them.

Where's the goods?

As mentioned, It appears on 198 of the DMG

A wizard decides he wants to research a new spell and the player tells the DM this. The DMG tells the DM, the player has to start paying the 1000gp per week, one week per spell level, spell research costs before the DM should say if the spell is approved or not. As the research costs accrue, the PC and the DM work to make the spell acceptable for the DM’s game. At the end, the spellcraft check is DC 15+ spell level to not ruin the research.

 

[MoogleEmpMog]

The reason few players research new spells is because some DMs add too many wotc published spells to the casters spell lists. A mistake Wotc encourages in the spell compendium. Why would a player pay to research a spell when the DM just gives it to him? If you want players to research spells, when they ask for a spell from a splat book, you tell them, "You've never heard of that spell before, though you could attempt to research it."

When a player is given a non PHB spell, that’s a 1000gp per spell level value they just got.

I'm sure you recognize this is a "mistake" only if one believes the 1,000 gp per spell level cost is good for the game.

Also, what's with "wotc-published;" WotC has no special claim on game balance or enjoyable flavor.

 

[GreatLemur]

In a 2e-era issue of Dragon, they suggested allowing 'flavor substitutions' for themed spellcasters (i.e., 'ice strands' in place of 'web,' 'coldball' in place of 'fireball,' or 'breathfreeze' instead of 'cloudkill') free of charge, and I saw a lot of players (myself included) use that option.

Honestly, I think that should pretty much always be assumed by default. If all the player wants is to apply a thematic (and maybe energy type) change to an existing spell, why saddle him or her with research costs for what amounts to a cosmetic choice?

 

[Blood Jester]

I never once played with a DM who would gladly provide the downtime to research a spell, much less allow you to accrue the resources. And heaven forbid you sacrificed enough and petitioned enough to actully get it done, because your research always failed.

I love the concept, but in play I *really* hate research.

I am glad that default 3e provides me most of the tools to have the type and style of spell I want, without having to beg a DM to allow me to give up a large chunk of my PCs resources to get there.

 

[Henry]

Spell Research sort of disappeared when 3E compiled all the old spells, and then added about four billion more over various supplements. Result? Now, almost all the holes that used to exist are plugged with existing spells, or with metamagics that alter the existing spells. Kind of sad, in a way, though at least you won't have players re-inventing the wheel all the time.

 

[frankthedm]

I'm sure you recognize this is a "mistake" only if one believes the 1,000 gp per spell level cost is good for the game.

I definitly think it is good for the game not to double the size of the already potent divine casters' spell lists. I definitly think adding th entire SC to a games spell list kills the goal of getting players to research more spells.

Also, what's with "wotc-published;" WotC has no special claim on game balance or enjoyable flavor.

No they don't. Spell reserch is how game balance is maintained. A player that tries to sneak an overpowered spell by the DM pays 1000gp just to get the "No."

"wotc-published" Also was a pot shot at the text in the spell compendium that expects all the spells in it to be added into the game as the default use of the book.

Spell Compendium is easy to use. It works just like Chapter 11: Spells in the Player’s Handbook. When selecting spells for your character, simply open and place Spell Compendium next to your Player’s Handbook and use both books’ spell lists for your character’s class to make your spell selections

 

[Blood Jester]

...A player that tries to sneak an overpowered spell by the DM pays 1000gp just to get the "No."...

I am having flashbacks, except replace "an overpowered" with "a new or different".

That apporach is why I hate spell research in play.

Why wouldn't a DM give a player more guidance *before* the research fails as to what is "OK"?

Too many DMs would rather take your lunch money than play with you.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

But why waste a precious feat on metamagic, when you can spend a little bit of time and money to get the metamagic version of a spell without it?... It's just different costs to achieve the same ends.

It depends on your goals in the light of the current system, and the resources the PC has.

With research, you could have "cold" versions of every spell that has an energy type, but it could cost you a load of research expenditures. If you then want to have "cold" mixed into but not substituting in all those spells, you have to do more research.

With the Metamagic Feat Energy Substitution, you just sub the energy type of the spell with "cold." Take the Metamagic Feat Energy Admixture, and you can mix in "cold" to the spell.

The same kind of logic goes for Empower Spell- it potentially affects every damage dealing spell you know. Or could know.

Could a PC do this via research? Sure. But eventually, he's going to run out of resources, or he'll know his maximum number of spells or some such.

 

[MoogleEmpMog]

I definitly think it is good for the game not to double the size of the already potent divine casters' spell lists. I definitly think adding th entire SC to a games spell list kills the goal of getting players to research more spells.

Agreed on the latter point, at least... however, that doesn't change the fact that you could lose the 1,000 gp cost for research rather than adding it to non-core spells.

Mind you, I'd cut the spell list down to FAR below PHB levels - but I wouldn't give any special consideration to a spell just because it was "Core."

No they don't. Spell reserch is how game balance is maintained. A player that tries to sneak an overpowered spell by the DM pays 1000gp just to get the "No."

Because the game wouldn't be balanced just by the "No" - metaphorically hitting the player on the nose with the rolled-up newspaper of wasted gp is needed to achieve the derision and fiat that truly says "balance." :nonexistentrolleyessmiley:

"wotc-published" Also was a pot shot at the text in the spell compendium that expects all the spells in it to be added into the game as the default use of the book.

Ah, I see.

Certainly that's the default stance I've seen in every D&D game (3e or AD&D), but then, it was long before the Compendium.

 

[Imp]

Isn't there another factor, namely that 3e spells are more codified and standardized than their 1e/2e counterparts, such that there's less perceived room to customize spells that do something besides xd6 + energy type? In AD&D spells were (kinda sorta) balanced by factors such as component cost, side effect, casting time/ restrictions, and had more customized effects... there seems to be less of that in 3e.

I rarely made custom spells/ did spell research in 1e, but I don't have the urge to do it at all in 3e. None of this is to say that 1e's approach to spells was better, it definitely had its downsides too.