What exactly is OGL bloat?

[kenmarable]

OGL bloat refers to IMHO to three things

(snip)

All of this lead to lots of niche products lining the shelves and bloating the market.

Really I think that last line deserves it's own point.

4) A lot more books on the shelves than customer money to buy them with. A lot of distributors and stores got burned on overstocking either too many copies of products that wouldn't sell, or just too many separate products. Either way the result was FAR more books produced than sold.

Other than that, I agree 100% and I think you separated out the different, but related, issues that popped up.

But I'll chime in with Erik than I don't think I've ever seen the term "OGL bloat" before. Has that term cropped up in the latest series of threads debating whether 4e is doing great/utterly failing? I tend to avoid those for sanity's sake.

 

[Aberzanzorax]

Two more things:

1. I read through that thread I mentioned and here is what I think the most helpful responses boiled down to:

The d20/3e glut was because supply exceeded demand. Rather than distributors or retailers carefully vetting/researching those products, they overordered and then were stuck holding a bunch of junk. That was bad because they then were very wary about ordering things, so they continued not to vet/research products to see what might be good or might sell, and so they stopped ordering more products, even the good ones.

Basically, it boiled down to multiple levels of the supply chain not knowing what would sell. I'd take this to mean any of these:
--They didn't do their research that they clearly could have done (in the case of books like Fast Forward Games where the rules were just wrong all over the place).
--They didn't have enough info available (it was a new product by a new company).
--They couldn't do their research (because there were too many products to research, they didn't have the resources, or they were just plain lazy or ignorant as to how).




2. It occurs to me that I also haven't heard of "OGL bloat", but have heard "3e glut or d20 glut". I've also heard "rules bloat".

If you're speaking about rules bloat, I take that to mean that there were just too many options, particularly too many "broken" "untested" "imbalanced" options...even moreso when combined with other "broken" "untested" or "imbalanced" options. This came from a constant broadening of the game (by many 3pp as well as WotC solely internally). It appears to also be problematic in 4e, but would be addressible with a model of "compartmentalization' or "modularization' rather than broadening.

What I mean by that (and I don't know a ton about White Wolf, so this MAY fall apart) is the example of White Wolf's model. From my understanding, there are two editions of the whole of the World of Darkness setting/system. However, there are a multitude of games within each of those editions...they've been compartmentalized. I could play just Vampire the Masquerade. I could play just Werewolf the Apocalypse. Or I could mix and match them together. The way they modularized it, I think that it has allowed for players/dms to focus on the game they want to play, while making the system as a whole that much broader. Contrast that with Player's handbook II, Complete Champion, all the Races books, etc, and even the setting books. The core was the large part and that got too big and unwieldy. Erratas were not updated well, consistently, or quickly...so the game got out of hand, and much time was spent determining what made sense to use versus just playing.

I agree with what many say, that new editions are inevitable eventually. I think that there are many things that can be done to prevent rules bloat toppling a system. I even think they could have addressed that in a profitable way at the end of 3e's run. However, they instead pressed the "reset" button, which also addressed the problem. I hope they learned from this and have an alternate strategy to avoid the "reset" button of 5e, but the "everything is core" and "a new phb each year" philosophies/plans don't bode well for this IMO.



I'd be happy to be more specific on the second one if that is what you mean, but as it's already long, I'll hold off until you clarify what you mean by "OGL Bloat". The first one I can't really clarify, as I don't understand that as an issue myself.

 

[xechnao]

Really I think that last line deserves it's own point.

4) A lot more books on the shelves than customer money to buy them with. A lot of distributors and stores got burned on overstocking either too many copies of products that wouldn't sell, or just too many separate products. Either way the result was FAR more books produced than sold.

Other than that, I agree 100% and I think you separated out the different, but related, issues that popped up.

But I'll chime in with Erik than I don't think I've ever seen the term "OGL bloat" before. Has that term cropped up in the latest series of threads debating whether 4e is doing great/utterly failing? I tend to avoid those for sanity's sake.

You nailed it.

Initially there was high demand. Consequently there was high production. But after some little time consumers got burnt. The industry had not been anticipating this. So in the end the industry somehow burnt itself too. Now distributors only carry a couple of houses. And when I am speaking of today's distributors I mean what is left of the distributors.

 

[ggroy]

I agree with what many say, that new editions are inevitable eventually. I think that there are many things that can be done to prevent rules bloat toppling a system. I even think they could have addressed that in a profitable way at the end of 3e's run. However, they instead pressed the "reset" button, which also addressed the problem. I hope they learned from this and have an alternate strategy to avoid the "reset" button of 5e, but the "everything is core" and "a new phb each year" philosophies/plans don't bode well for this IMO.

With the 4E "a new PHB each year" plan, WotC appears to be doing it also with "a new DMG each year". With the 4E DMG's released or announced so far, the first DMG covers basic info that one would expect and stuff which would be useful for running heroic tier adventures.

The blurb for DMG2 mentions including information which may be useful for running paragon tier adventures, and maybe even some rules changes. What exactly is the nature of this information remains to be be seen. Maybe they will include information such as stuff from the 3E Stronghold Builder's Guide or 3.5E "Heroes of Battle"?

If this pattern continues, DMG3 in 2010 will consists of information useful for running epic tier adventures and maybe some further rules changes. Hopefully it will be better and more useful than the 3E epic level handbook (or the 3.5E Power of Faerun book).

What exactly will they do for a DMG4 in 2011? That is, besides super-epic level adventures beyond level 30.

What will they do for an "encore" DMG5 in 2012? Will they cover superduper-epic level adventures beyond level 100 ?!?!?!?

 

[Psion]

3.) New Systems: Sure, not everything fit D&D's assumed worldview and new settings (along with new rules) seemed natural, but after a while there was a giant bloat of every-new-setting-gets-its-own-OGL-compliant ruleset.

Wow, you think? My perception of the period was vastly different. Early in the era, there were a rash of "D&D in a Jello-mold" type settings/systems that were afraid to do so much as dispense with the basics races! It really wasn't until the number of publishers started to simmer down you (refreshingly) started to see publishers peel away and make more fine tuned craftings on the system.

 

[Shemeska]

But I'll chime in with Erik than I don't think I've ever seen the term "OGL bloat" before. Has that term cropped up in the latest series of threads debating whether 4e is doing great/utterly failing? I tend to avoid those for sanity's sake.

In some instances, I think it's quickly becoming the new "nerd rage" in some of those threads.

 

[Minicol]

This matter is highly subjective, and depends mainly on your tastes, as I have very rarely been disappointed by an OGL product. So to me the OGL bloat does not mean much.

The only problem I can see with the OGL is that there were too many player guides to so and so, and not enough adventures, or DM books.

At least the OGL were niche products, so you could avoid them if you were not interested, while a lot of official products were filler, and you had no warning to the quality of the content. OGL products are often innovative, and thought provoking. A gold mine for a DM like me.

Sure, not every product was stellar, but you get a fairly good idea of the content when checking the quality of the interior art : if it is amateurish, the rest of the book is likely so, and the reverse is true.

In short, my problem was more with OGL lean than with OGL bloat. Besides, OGL is not dead (technically).

 

[thecasualoblivion]

I don't think its as much an OGL bloat as an OGL bust. Lemme try a rough timeline, based simply on what I've heard:

(I'm not an expert, so excuse me if I'm wrong on some of this)

1. 3E is released alongside the OGL, and many 3pp books are released and sell well.
2. FLGS and the market become buried with these 3pp.
3. A combination of too much supply and a lot of bad material giving the entire 3PP industry a bad name crashes the market and people stop buying.
4. 3PP books that aren't selling start clogging up shelves, FLGS and distributors are hurt and as a result start distrusting OGL/d20 books.
5. A few publishers manage to establish a good name and a following for their products despite all this(Necromancer, Goodman Games, Green Ronin, Malhavoc, ect.)
6. 3.5E D&D is released, making all of the previously released books somewhat incompatible. Older 3PP books for the most part stop selling altogether.
7. A new mini-boom for 3PP as they release 3.5E compatible material, sometimes just a rehashing of previous works.
8. Another bust, where 3PP books stop selling because of oversupply and bad books giving the the whole concept a bad name.
9. 4E is announced, and with a few small exceptions both supply and demand for these books lessens dramatically.
10. 4E is released, without a real framework for 3PP to work with. One major 3PP jumps on board(Goodman) and has some success, but the others don't convert. The market for new 3.5E material is uncertain.

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

Before reading the thread, I would have guessed that the term "OGL Bloat" referred to the lengthening copyright notice in Section 15, required by the terms of the license itself.

 

[Psion]

Before reading the thread, I would have guessed that the term "OGL Bloat" referred to the lengthening copyright notice in Section 15, required by the terms of the license itself.

That's what I thought.