What exactly is "Roleplaying", Do We Think?

[chaochou]

Suppose I start from here, and add in:

*the fiction should include a signficant amount of content of which particular protagonists are at the centre;

*the system should focus to a signficiant extent on mediating the fictional deeds of those protgaonists.

Clearly I've now narrowed your summary. Do you think I've narrowed it too far to be useful? Or would I still capture some central and perhaps typical cases of RPGing?
​

Cool, stuff. I've had to think for a while about those additions.

I'm wary of the word 'should', but I agree that:

* RPG fiction centres on protaganists

I've been trying to think of a game where this isn't true and can't come up with one - Microscope maybe an outlier although I've not read or played it so I'm going on hearsay.

* System is how you mediate the fictional deeds of the protagonists (and supporting cast?)

I agree with that; it pretty much maps to Vincent Baker's definition, although his is a little broader: "System is defined as the process by which you decide what happens in the game."

With those additions. does 'Fiction - System - Fiction' work as a definition, do you think?​

 

[pemerton]

Interesting. Can you elaborate?

I was thinking that "playing a character" can cover a lot of, potentially controversial, territory. And I wasn't sure which bits of that territory you wanted to stake out!

For example, it seems that most of the respondents on this thread think of engaging the system (at least where that involves rolling dice) as something separate from roleplaying. Whereas I think it can definitely be part of playing one's character (although it might depend a bit on the system, and how metagamey it is).

And this produces weird consequences, right. If the player of a wizard decides to cast a 7th level spell, and does so, that's roleplaying. If the player of a fighter decides to attack an orc, and rolls the dice, that starts as roleplaying but then (for those who accept the dichotomy) turns into roll-playing. So suddenly the player of a fighter is hosed as a "roleplayer" because the system happens not to require a die roll for spell casting (contrast RM, for example, which does require a roll).

I personally don't accept the roleplaying/rollplaying dichotomy, and I think that engaging the mechanics, even when that involves rolling a die, can be an element of roleplaying. I think [MENTION=99817]chaochou[/MENTION] is right, though, in saying upthread that for it to count as roleplaying the system must be mediating changes in the content of the shared fiction.

I don't see "roleplaying" as including any element of "mechanical system", either. I ask myself the question "could I roleplay alone" and I believe I can; mechanical system is only required when dealing with others, and I don't believe it is required to roleplay.

<snip>

I agree that the roleplaying component stands separate from the system; where I have problems is how this matches with "roleplaying" having or creating demands of the form of the system.

I don't have a view on whether system is required to roleplay in general. But I think it is required to roleplay in an RPG - there has to be some method of transforming player decisions into some content in the shared fiction. I also don't think that engaing the system is something that is different from roleplaying. Apart from anything else, the view that it is produces the pejorative characterisation of playing a fighter I noted above.

Yup, the question only asks about the roleplaying side of the roleplaying game. The game part is the system in a roleplaying game.

I don't think I accept this dichotomy, for the reasons I've mentioned above.

 

[pemerton]

With those additions. does 'Fiction - System - Fiction' work as a definition, do you think?

Works for me. I don't play the range of games that you do, but even with the more limited range of games I know and play, I think it works.

What I like about it is that it captures the centrality of system in mediating changes to/contributions to the fiction. I mean, sitting around imagining myself doing deeds of derring-do might be fun, but I don't think it's roleplaying in the sense relevant to an RPG.

 

[Desdichado]

Yet you felt compelled to open this thread, go far beyond merely stating this point, and somehow also felt you needed to define anyone who disagrees as disingenuous and sundry other epithets.

I felt compelled to respond to an open question that I thought was interesting. Because the topic itself interested me. Shocking, I know. It's almost like this is a messageboard for people to discuss their hobby or something.

Why did you think anything you've posted could be mistaken for flattery?

Huh? You somehow got that completely turned aorund 180 degrees. I never thought I was flattering anyone.

 

[Mark CMG]

I don't think I accept this dichotomy, for the reasons I've mentioned above.

You seem to be conflating playing a character in a roleplaying game with the more specific roleplaying part of playing a character. Roleplaying has a more narrow definition which seems to be accounting for the perceived dichotomy. I certainly agree that playing a character in a roleplaying game involves much more than just the roleplaying portion, including the rolling of dice and some other mechanical trappings. Perhaps you were looking on my definition of roleplaying and expecting a broader definition to include all activities involved in playing a character?

 

[Mark CMG]

I felt compelled to respond to an open question that I thought was interesting. Because the topic itself interested me. Shocking, I know. It's almost like this is a messageboard for people to discuss their hobby or something.

Perhaps next time you could state your opinion then leave off the addtional portions of the post designed to be insulting to other who might disagree.

Don't flatter yourself, Mark.

Why did you think anything you've posted could be mistaken for flattery?

Huh? You somehow got that completely turned aorund 180 degrees. I never thought I was flattering anyone.

Full circle even.

 

[Bedrockgames]

I was thinking that "playing a character" can cover a lot of, potentially controversial, territory. And I wasn't sure which bits of that territory you wanted to stake out!

For example, it seems that most of the respondents on this thread think of engaging the system (at least where that involves rolling dice) as something separate from roleplaying. Whereas I think it can definitely be part of playing one's character (although it might depend a bit on the system, and how metagamey it is).

And this produces weird consequences, right. If the player of a wizard decides to cast a 7th level spell, and does so, that's roleplaying. If the player of a fighter decides to attack an orc, and rolls the dice, that starts as roleplaying but then (for those who accept the dichotomy) turns into roll-playing. So suddenly the player of a fighter is hosed as a "roleplayer" because the system happens not to require a die roll for spell casting (contrast RM, for example, which does require a roll).

.

Just to be clear though "roll" in this instance need not literally be a roll. I see no real difference between casting a spell and swinging a sword. Neither one is role playing in the firm sense of the word (and as I have been using it here) IMO. To me the role play stuff would be th wizard interacting with an NPC through dialogue. Sword swinging and spell casting to me is peripherally connected to rp but really these are the gamey parts of the hobby. That doesn't mean rp cant emerge during these activities though.

 

[chaochou]

I ask myself the question "could I roleplay alone" and I believe I can; mechanical system is only required when dealing with others, and I don't believe it is required to roleplay.

Without 'system' what is the difference between 'roleplaying alone' and 'daydreaming'?

(Not a snark, btw. Genuine question).

 

[Zelda Themelin]

Roleplaying for me is playing character(s). Game has rules, and some kinda stats for character, loosely or stricly.

Character might change or not during game, like in tv-stories, some have story that changes characters/world, some have story where always happen something but next episode it doesn't matter at all, status que forever.

I prefer playing roleplay such way, that there is character sheet, character changes, there is progress in story/world/other characters.

I usually play my character this way:
"Character name" says/yells/etc: Hey, let's take left corridor

Then I can talk for while without saying "my character says" all the time. To some extent I like acting it out, but not always. Depends on group really.


If there is no character in-game talking it doesn't feel me like roleplaying game.
It becomes more like my game of monopoly where I throw some funny remarks based on my gaming piece (I preferred dog) sometimes.
Something I can do with any board game etc.
Roleplayijng games are games that support immersion. Getting into character more, and rules are kinda backdrop thing, though important one so it's not just cop&robbers enchanted. You can also drop rules entirely and just roleplay but then it's kinda less game and more shared storytelling where you play a role. But I woudn't call it roleplaying game just roleplaying.

Between this and that there can be pretty much variation what each group chooses to do what systems they play and what playstyle they consider fun.

All roleplaying games have some sort of character sheet and so do some boardgames, which could play out as roleplaying game if wanted.

 

[Zelda Themelin]

Without 'system' what is the difference between 'roleplaying alone' and 'daydreaming'?

(Not a snark, btw. Genuine question).

Hehe without system for me it certainly would be daydreaming. I sometimes "roleplay" some situations in my head as I think some game to come, but it's kinda planning rather than actually roleplaying.


However if I would pick one of those "choose your adventure books" and read/play it (without cheating) or pick sole module like candwell's castle for D&D and roll dice and play it, it would have feel of roleplaying.

There would be elements of game. Roleplaying is kinda like acting and when you are doing that alone you are practicing in front of mirror or something.
But it also needs to have game part in it.

So, I don't feel I am roleplaying without book/module/computer game/other people. There are different worlds for alone-games.

I don't about the other poster you refer here, but I certainly am daydreaming when I just think situations and gamestories.