What good are insta-kill spells and monsters ?

[silentspace]

MarauderX - I just sent you an email

 

[evileeyore]

Who gets to define "capriciously?"

Mirriam-Webster Online

ca·pri·cious
Pronunciation: k&-'pri-sh&s, -'prE-
Function: adjective
: governed or characterized by caprice : IMPULSIVE, UNPREDICTABLE
synonym see INCONSTANT
- ca·pri·cious·ly adverb
- ca·pri·cious·ness noun

But then you should have expected that.



/On Topic

I find that Insta-kill monsters, spells, and situations are far more frustrating to the GM. The last three campaings I have been in have ended after TPK's or near-TPK experiences due to an Insta-kill effect or similiar Insta-something situation (the 2nd one ended when the enemy wizard Dominated our party Fighter. 4 character deaths in 2 rounds, only our Sorceror-polymorphed into a Bunny*, and the Rogue/Fighter escaped. We disbanded that campaign.). 2 of these campiagns ended long before the final showdown with the BBEG. what is the GM to do then? Start a fresh group off after the same things. Sorry we don't really work that way (we usually end up making radically different characters with very different goals).

Personally I don't mind Death in D&D. Infact I rarely take D&D seriously, I mean it is really hard to when you know (even as a character) that you'll come back. I often end up playing characters that just don't take things seriously.

Now in any other game system (where death has teeth and balls), I play it more straight up, and pay alot more attention to detail. But even then I don't bemoan death. In our first 'run' in our current ShadowRun campiagn we lost 3 out of 5 characters (2 dead, 1 captured). One to a 'save or die' affect (Manaball to the Troll Street Sam with a 1 Will... woosh crispy brains). In fact my character lived only to be taken by Saeder-Krup (I think it was Sader-Krup... coulda been BMW...), and now I play a new character.

That is just the way it goes.


TTFN

EvilE

*The 'harmless little bunny' killed the enemy Drow Wizard in Drow-to-Bunny combat. We figure he musta had really big teeth...

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

they want their characters lives and deaths to have "meaning".

some of us want our characters to be us for those few brief hours. people die..sh*t happens...it makes the game more believeable.

Believable? I thought we were discussing D&D.

It is far more important that D&D be a good game than it conform to some person's view of what is believable. As a game we want interesting decisions that have interesting consequences. Death coming down from a clear blue sky is surely one of the more boring options available. Think of the possibilities: Teleport to a random location, drain 2d10 Wis, Planeshift to the Plane of Lava, trap the victim's soul in the amulet, victim becomes insane, Confusion on everyone in a 60' radius, etc. Suddenly slumping over is just deadly dull.

 

[the Jester]

This weekend our Cleric got wasted by a Golem with an insta-kill save or die spell in him in the first round. Since we weren't aware of this capability this added ZERO to the game. Dying is one thing... dying suddenly due to a completely unforeseen enemy capability simply sucked big.

Dude, you'd hate my game. It's full of enemies with deadly and unknown abilities.

Do you really believe you should know the capabilities of your adversaries in advance? Would you be disgruntled if you went to fight a sorceress and she turned out to be a medusa sorcereress and you got petrified? I'm not trying to sound snarky- I'm just puzzled by why this bothered you. Maybe I should read the rest of the thread here.

I think the 'surprise!' elements of an encounter are crucial to maintaining the fun and suspense of the game. If you become aware of an instant-death attack because one of your friends dies from it, it should make you all the more tense and frightened of the monster. If you feel that knowing in advance is the only way to get the proper suspense, take the time (and often money) to carefully research everything you think you'll be encountering and you should be halfway there.

 

[the Jester]

To address the direction this thread has mutated into- that of capricious dm behavior (which I think goes far beyond instant death stuff)- I'd just like to say that one huge influence on 'dm capriciousness' is whether the world is set up to provide organic encounters (you go to Dragon Mountain at 1st level or 20th level, the same dragon lives there) or more tailored encounters (the party's 10th level and they're going to Dragon Mountain? Let's make the dragon a CR 14 encounter- tough but not quite unbeatable).

In a more organic setting, the creatures are already there; there should be lots of clues as to how bad of an idea it is to venture into the Buzzing Fens seeking the Black Academy. When you're told that the last age's greatest heroes died on that same quest, you know you're too low level at 5th. In a tailored setting, you'll hear that 'no one has ever returned' from dungeons with a BBEG who is only CR 4, as long as you're still 2nd level.

I prefer a more organic setting, but it's all a style thing.

 

[frankthedm]

Death happens, life is not always fair. You chose to tempt death when you sleep in the inn room [if you picked the wrong dive to stay in at least].

Save or Die for a golem sounds par for the course at the level of magic to make one of those in the D&D system.

 

[Brother MacLaren]

I can understand the original poster's point. It's not entirely about the PCs not knowing that there's a BBEG with insta-kill coming up; it's partly about the *players* not knowing there's a particularly dangerous BBEG. The same encounter could have had a lot more drama and build-up around the table if they knew that the final door was guarded by the mysterious and powerful Shadow Golem. Even if the PCs have no way of knowing the thing's capabilities, the players still get the fun - yes, fun - of anticipation and that feeling of entertaining dread when their PCs finally meet it. Like a good horror movie.
So that's my take on it. I, as a player, can have more fun looking forward to a horrible confrontation than by having my character keel over dead from something I didn't expect (although I have no major problem with the latter if it makes sense in-game, the former is more fun). But that doesn't ruin the possibility of attacks that are a surprise to the PC - since I know the abilities of the assassin PrC, I'll have a much higher sense of dread than my PC will if I know he's being stalked by an assassin.
I once had a player who wanted nothing bad to ever happen to a character other than losing hit points. No charm, no paralysis, no poison, no polymorph, and definitely no insta-kill. HP were the only mechanic to go with. I couldn't ever agree to limit a game that much. Transmutation and enchantment effects in particular have way too much of a history in literature and folklore to do away with.

 

[Stalker0]

It adds a level of reality and sh*t happens to a game but I generally don't think either are needed. It takes away some interest in their characters from the PC's. Once this happens you get odder and odder characters who are played with little regard for the DM's world.

When I think about it, that is so true. I've seen it before... profound man

 

[hong]

Dude, you'd hate my game. It's full of enemies with deadly and unknown abilities.

Do you really believe you should know the capabilities of your adversaries in advance? Would you be disgruntled if you went to fight a sorceress and she turned out to be a medusa sorcereress and you got petrified?

I would. On the other hand, I wouldn't be disgruntled with finding out the sorceress was a disguised titan or something, and had the ability to pound me into the ground over 2-3 rounds while shrugging off most attacks.

The issue is not deadliness. Even if you take out instakill effects, there are more than enough big brute monsters at high levels that can dish out the damage. When our high-level group fought Ashardalon at the end of the Bastion of Broken Souls, he wasted three PCs purely via hit point damage; no instakill effects at all.

The issue is randomness: to what degree should the outcome of an encounter be dictated by a single die roll? This goes both ways. Is it interesting to have a climactic encounter be short-circuited, because the wizard gets lucky with a hold person? And yes, there are ways to minimise your vulnerability to such things, eg by boosting your saves. The problem still exists, and if you play for long enough, the situation will still arise.

 

[diaglo]

exactly.

if you are agreeing with me. you'd best reread my earlier posts to understand what you are agreeing with.

if there is no sense of death...there is no fun...

i can play CRPGs and use the save or cheat codes if i don't want my character to die.

my biggest complaint about the players of today.