What happened to the story?

[pdkoning]

I think the story was ceremonially sacrificed on the first printed 3.0 PHB back in 2000... I get the impression the 3e designers saw 'story' as what ruined 2e, and have tried hard to eliminate it from 3e entirely.

I never played 2e, my experiences with 3e have been very good (story-wise) The only thing one really needs is a good DM. - but I guess this is the case for every system / version.

3e Introduced the OGL, and along with the OGL many, many publishers who publish 'flavor' books. If you are referring to pre-designed adventures, then yes, they may have declined. I also think that the movement towards miniatures is a movement away from the 'story'.

But when you have a good DM, you are never short of a good story / plot, and there are still enough sources to get your inspiration from.

 

[reanjr]

aren't the stories in the modules that are for sale? For those that can't; time wise, or other... Granted lots of the are not that good, but then a lot of 'rule' books are pretty bad too.

That's a bit different. An adventure is giving you one story. What I like is story elements or set pieces. Since every game is different and every party is different, it seems like an adventure would be the last thing someone needs.

 

[reanjr]

I think the story was ceremonially sacrificed on the first printed 3.0 PHB back in 2000... I get the impression the 3e designers saw 'story' as what ruined 2e, and have tried hard to eliminate it from 3e entirely.

Which is unfortunate, because story is what made me keep buying the 2e products for so long. I used to buy nearly every campaign setting product. Now, I buy the campaign setting and that's it. They just haven't caught my interest.

 

[Darkness]

I can make rules myself

Without a big effort? If so, are you writing d20 books?

 

[reanjr]

But when you have a good DM, you are never short of a good story / plot, and there are still enough sources to get your inspiration from.

What if you are the DM, though? Yes, I can come up with my own stories. But I don't have time to spend on it. I do absolutely no planning, note-taking, or anything else outside of normal game hours (8 hours every Sunday). I spend enough time digesting new supplements. If, while doing so, I was getting story ideas, that would be great.

Players take good DMs for granted.

 

[S'mon]

I also think that the movement towards miniatures is a movement away from the 'story'.

I agree that the very strong minis basis of the game has IME hampered drama & description, one reason I as GM am aiming to deemphasise minis & battleboards in my new campaign. Thinking of 2e, I tend to think of the heavily 'plot based' scenario approach, with lots of linked scenes, rather than the site-based approach of 1e. Many players prefer site-based as it allows for more player freedom and less risk of 'derailing the plot' - short of PCs physically leaving the campaign area, the GM is unlikely to run out of material. I think a site-based scenario can still have more flavour & interest than the default 3e approach though, I've run a fair number of WoTC's free-download scenarios and their main use is maps & stat blocks, eg they almost never have interesting NPCs to talk to rather than fight, never mind moral quandaries ("should we do X or Y"?).

 

[S'mon]

Darkness - personally I'm of the camp that has little difficulty making up new rules (even 'balanced' rules!), but I have little desire to attempt to sell these to the world as d20 supplements. It's not like games designers are well paid. I value flavour & excitement in a product and tend to dislike 'crunch', crunch divorced from flavour is worthless IMO so when eg I buy 'Grim Tales', advertised as a 'pulp adventure' d20 RPG and find it all crunch (mostly recycled d20 Modern), and no pulp flavour, I am severely disappointed.

 

[Berandor]

Well, I can do story myself. I don't need anyone to do it for me. I think I'm not the only one, either.

NOTE: This pots does NOT, nor has it ever, addressed Darkness' comment. It is a pre-emptive rant.

I can do rules myself, too. In fact, I do rules myself. Still we get books for rules.

I don't think this argument can hold any water, especially if we're not talking about less books with "story" in it, but virtually no books.

And I'm also looking at it from a perspective of a new DM. He gets tons of new rules, but advice for stories to play out? Help with the role-playing part of the game? "You're on your own there, buddy. Don't get killed, and be home before nine." That is a - to me - slippery slope that leads to less emphasis on story in the "new generation", which leads to less story in official supplements (since that's not what's wanted), which in turn leads to even less emphasis on story.

I don't want to see out summer blockbusters, exclusively. I want to see other films, too.

Oh, and for a positive example concerning story: "Legacy of Dragons", the AU monster book, had encounter ideas for each monster. These encounters, small as they were, went over the usual "you walk in the wilderness and out springs a troll" type of encounters that seems to run the gamut now. In a small block of text, I got inspired. Inspired to use the monster. My synapses (is that an English word?) started firing, sparks flew, and I constructed stories.

Yes, the human imagination is a wonderful tool. And it works even better when it's kickstarted. Making a new feat is lazy, easy. It's contained. Inspiring DMs and players to tell stories - that's difficult. Who ever read "Weapon Specialization" and thought "I'm gonna hinge a story on that."?

 

[Darkness]

I can do rules myself, too.

Without a big effort?

 

[Darkness]

I don't think this argument can hold any water

You should have read it before replying, then.

I said I don't need anyone to make story for me but I still want good books for it. Where's your problem with that?