What happens when you Extend Spell on Heat Metal?

[Shadowdweller]

While we're speaking of how BROKEN adding in 7 more rounds of 2d4 damage is for that 2nd level spell, let's also compare Flaming Sphere (another 2nd level spell) which, when extended, can do an entire 40d6 damage at CL 20. That's four fireballs, folks! Must be broken.

Or, at CL 5 when you can first cast an extended 2nd level spell, your Flaming Sphere averages 70 damage if all saves are failed (since we're assuming Heat Metal is automatically successful as well) versus 55 points for a "22d4" extended Heat Metal.

 

[Diirk]

1 Warm
2 Hot
3 Searing
4 Searing
5 Searing
6 Searing
7 Searing
8 Searing
9 Hot
10 Hot
11 Hot
12 Warm
13 Warm
14 Warm

I was leaning on all the extra rounds being 'searing', but I like this idea alot. I think the greatest drawback of an extended heat metal etc. is that from my experience most fights tend to be over in 5 rounds or so anyway... so a slow start up would make the spell WORSE than the unextended version in probably 95% of battles.

With a double cycle (warm, hot, searing, hot, warm, warm, hot, searing, hot, warm) the extended version would begin to do more damage on round 9. With a double length of each phase the extended version would do more damage on round 8. With Hyper's suggestion, the extended version would begin to do more damage on round 6... still not always useful, but better.

 

[dcollins]

Good question, here's how I'd rule: the extended duration extends the middle part, the "searing" damage, by that amount of time. I think this has two things going for it:

(1) It seems to match the general intent of the spell, 2 rounds of ramp-up time, maximum damage for a spread in the middle, then 2 rounds of ramp-down time.

(2) If you assume that text takes precedence over table, the text (of chill metal) doesn't really mention rounds 6 or 7 -- it mentions the "last" and "next-to-last" rounds (ramp-down time) and rounds 3, 4, and 5 (max damage time). Hence, narrowly construed by the text, the extended spell has rounds 13 and 14 ramp-down, with rounds 6-12 undefined. What to fill in rounds 6-12? Seems like the max damage is the smoothest interpolation.

As others have said, this generous interpretation still seems balanced if an average combat only takes 4 or 5 rounds anyway.

 

[KarinsDad]

While we're speaking of how BROKEN adding in 7 more rounds of 2d4 damage is for that 2nd level spell, let's also compare Flaming Sphere (another 2nd level spell) which, when extended, can do an entire 40d6 damage at CL 20. That's four fireballs, folks! Must be broken.

Or, at CL 5 when you can first cast an extended 2nd level spell, your Flaming Sphere averages 70 damage if all saves are failed (since we're assuming Heat Metal is automatically successful as well) versus 55 points for a "22d4" extended Heat Metal.

Actually, I don't think anyone said it was broken. It is potent though.

As for failing 10 Reflex saves, it's not going to happen.

When you compare the two spells, Extend Heat Metal is either a bust, or it does more damage (but, most threats at level 5 do not have 55 hit points, so a lot of this will be wasted) than Extend Flaming Sphere. It's not as if most battles are going to often last 10 rounds in order to get that many rounds of Flaming Sphere, nor will all of those Reflex saving throws be failed. Reflex does not halve the damage in this case, it negates it.

So, more like 55 points of damage 2/3rds of the time (assuming all extra Searing rounds) that will extend beyond 10 rounds automatically versus maybe 47 points of damage (assuming 2/3rds saves and assuming the battle lasts 10 rounds and assuming the spell caster can afford a move action every round to move it).

Against one opponent, this version of Extend Heat Metal is on average more potent, against multiple opponents, Extend Flaming Sphere is more potent.

And as you get into higher levels, both spells become less useful.

 

[Jeff Wilder]

So an Extended version might be expected to deal 4 rounds of warm, 4 rounds of hot, and six rounds of searing.

Might be, but that makes little sense from utility or intuitive perspectives. At best, it makes sense from a strict interpretive sense. (Which, yes, is your favorite.)

From a utility perspective, the extended spell will simply never see use under that interpretation (which you implicitly acknowledge). Heat metal is already a tought spell to use, because by the time it does appreciable damage, the fight is often over. This interpretation exacerbates that issue.

From a common sense perspective, it's counterintuitive and largely nonsensical that extending the duration of the spell actually slows the function of the spell. (I.e., why in the world would Extend Spell make metal heat up half as quickly?)

I agree with Karins Dad as to how I'd run it. (Although I do think the "Extend Spell can't push a spell past its stated maximum duration does strictly answer the question.) The spell lasts twice as long, the heating and cooling times are the same. The ramp-up time is, as IMO it should be, more worth the extra damage.

 

[Shadowdweller]

Actually, I don't think anyone said it was broken. It is potent though.

The point to that particular statement is that when analyzing such things in such a manner, we're completely missing the Big Picture. In truth, the spell really is NOT even particularly potent all things considered (i.e. spells that make one helpless, do damage more quickly, permanently blind, and/or all sorts of other nasty possible effects). Well, ok, it's a good spell for a DM to throw at players to make them feel challenged without being seriously in danger of character death.

But while we're on the subect of comparisons:

As for failing 10 Reflex saves, it's not going to happen.

When you compare the two spells, Extend Heat Metal is either a bust, or it does more damage (but, most threats at level 5 do not have 55 hit points, so a lot of this will be wasted) than Extend Flaming Sphere. It's not as if most battles are going to often last 10 rounds in order to get that many rounds of Flaming Sphere, nor will all of those Reflex saving throws be failed. Reflex does not halve the damage in this case, it negates it.

Except that "bust" is equally significant. If we assume an equal chance of saving from each spell (which is not really valid IRL because they use different save types) the damage scales EQUALLY on each. Meaning that for 1 in 3 chance of saving throw we get:
Flaming Sphere: 70 dmg * 2/3 = (appx) 47 dmg
Heat Metal: 55 dmg * 2/3 = (appx) 37 dmg

In fact, over those 10 rounds of combat Flaming Sphere STILL does more damage! Oh yes, did I hear someone mention move action requirements? If we're going into such detail we might also take into account the percentage of opponents not wearing metal armor, the percentage who resist all the damage (and the fact that Fire Resistance 10 will NOT completely negate Flaming Sphere damage), and the percentage who can and do take off said metal item before the duration expires.

And if we're going to make statements about Flaming Sphere being more effective against groups, it should be noted that Heat Metal is multi-target.

Edit: Sorry if this sounds a bit snide. Not meant to be so.

 

[Hypersmurf]

From a common sense perspective, it's counterintuitive and largely nonsensical that extending the duration of the spell actually slows the function of the spell. (I.e., why in the world would Extend Spell make metal heat up half as quickly?)

Uh... that's why the entire point of my interpretation was that it heats up just as quickly; I have it cooling off more slowly.

What I posted still has EHM up to Searing in round 3, just like HM.

-Hyp.

 

[KarinsDad]

But while we're on the subect of comparisons: Except that "bust" is equally significant. If we assume an equal chance of saving from each spell (which is not really valid IRL because they use different save types) the damage scales EQUALLY on each. Meaning that for 1 in 3 chance of saving throw we get:
Flaming Sphere: 70 dmg * 2/3 = (appx) 47 dmg
Heat Metal: 55 dmg * 2/3 = (appx) 37 dmg

In fact, over those 10 rounds of combat Flaming Sphere STILL does more damage! Oh yes, did I hear someone mention move action requirements? If we're going into such detail we might also take into account the percentage of opponents not wearing metal armor, the percentage who resist all the damage (and the fact that Fire Resistance 10 will NOT completely negate Flaming Sphere damage), and the percentage who can and do take off said metal item before the duration expires.

I think the percentage that take off armor is close to 0% with this version of Extend Heat Metal. Even if they knew it was extended, taking armor off mid-combat is generally a really bad idea. And if you wait until combat is over (even for a short combat), by the time you get it off, the spell is no longer in effect and you took total damage.

Your Resistance Fire 10 vs. Flaming Sphere comment where you take 1 point of damage 5.6% of the time and 2 points of damage 2.8% of the time is so trivial that it was not worth your time to mention it. Average damage for a 10 rounds (assuming you get to use it all 10 rounds) with a 1/3rd save chance results in 0.74 points of damage per casting of the spell. It does not even average a single point of damage for an entire combat.

Also, the percentage of opponents who wear metal armor is also a minor limitation (in which case, you just do not cast the spell and cast something else) compared to the limitations of Flaming Sphere. Flaming Sphere has limitations that are greater than this:

1) It can only move 30 feet per round, so many opponents can get away and stay away and use ranged weapons. In fact, if outdoors, opponents can go a few hundred feet away and are safe from it.

2) It requires a move action to effectively activate most rounds. Your "Flaming Sphere: 70 dmg * 2/3 = (appx) 47 dmg" equation assumes that you use it every round. If you do, your spell caster is either basically immobile (shy of a 5 foot step) or does not cast his normal spell that round. That's pretty huge in a lot of circumstances.

3) A 5 foot wall (i.e. most wall spells) will stop it.

4) There are a lot of spells that assist against Flaming Sphere, but do nothing against Heat Metal (e.g. Dimension Door, Levitate, Fly). There are very few spells that help against Heat Metal and not against Flaming Sphere (e.g. Chill Metal, Ray of Frost, any cold spell) and most potent cold spells will do more damage than they counter.

5) Protection spells that give bonuses to saves can be cast after Flaming Sphere and change the save ratio (e.g. Bless, Prayer, Protection From Evil/Good/..., Cat's Grace).

6) Flaming Sphere can be put out with sufficient sand, water, possibly even a blanket or tarp, etc.

7) If you knock out or kill the caster of Flaming Sphere, you effectively neutralize the Flaming Sphere spell. Flaming Sphere is a "Hey, come attack me!" spell.

Plus, this version of Extend Heat Metal would force metal clad Clerics (or Psionic types or Bards or Warlocks or War Mages if wearing metal armor) to make Concentration rolls to cast spells every round (starting in round two) is successful. With Extend Flaming Sphere, the Cleric needs only take a 5 foot step to avoid the Concentration roll.

All in all, Extend Flaming Sphere is inferior when compared to Extend Heat Metal with the exception of damage per round and range. But for overall damage, this version of Extend Heat Metal wins hands down. There are just too many ways to avoid or overcome Flaming Sphere.

And if we're going to make statements about Flaming Sphere being more effective against groups, it should be noted that Heat Metal is multi-target.

Good point. Guess Extend Heat Metal is still more potent all the way around.

Edit: Sorry if this sounds a bit snide. Not meant to be so.

If you did not mean it to be so, why did you need this comment? If you thought that was the case, you could have just as easily edited the text above to make sure you did not sound snide.

 

[Hypersmurf]

With Extend Flaming Sphere, the Cleric needs only take a 5 foot step to avoid the Concentration roll.

Not even that. Flaming Sphere deals damage when it enters a creature's square and stops moving for the round. It's not continuous damage.

-Hyp.

 

[Jeff Wilder]

What I posted still has EHM up to Searing in round 3, just like HM.

I was responding to the other interpretation in your post, not that one. (Hence the line I quoted.)