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What Happens When You Go Lich?
- Thread starter Valicor
- Start date
Just to fully explore this notion of charging the lich for becoming a lich, let's consider the vampire for just a moment.
Now I know that people said that vampires happen "by accident" and "no one *wants* to be a vampire", but I think of the Vampire Chronicles and all the LARPers I know and I have to disagree. The vast majority of the powers that people are bemoaning about the lich are simply the powers to any creature of Type: Undead.
Like liches, vampires are immune to crits. Vampires are immune to mind-affecting damage, most necromancy, are healed by negative energy, etc.
Any old or dying person would probably willingly take vampirism, if offered, to stake, er STAVE, off death.
It takes a role-playing session to convince a vampire to change you or some adventurer-style muscle to force the vampire to drain the victim's Con away. It may be a challenge, but it's something a decent-level party could do.
(Please, I'm not arguing how you would go about this or that "my paladin would never accept such a thing!", I'm just talking the mechanics here; bear with me).
However you arrange to have a vampire change you, the rules are clear: unlike lichdom, it costs NOTHING (no xp, no feat needed) and it is a far quicker (1d4 days after being buried).
So you are, say, an 11th wizard and track down a vampire. Using your spellpower you trap it, force it to drain your Con (using a Control Undead scroll; I don't care about the details), then your golem/undead/standing spells kill the vampire and bury your body. You rise 1d4 days later as an undead, enjoying no master to boss you around and most of the benefits that have been discussed on this thread.
I know of a number of PCs that would cheerfully "force" such an "accident" to them. Furthermore, unlike lycanthropes, the vampire template HAS no known cure; it's not a temporary situation. Once you're a vamp, you're a vamp.
So should this player be penalized 5 levels for playing by the rules? Should the lich also be penalized 5 levels for playing by the rules (and paying on top of that)? These are *major* Rule 0 items to say "this is wrong; you must play a 5 level PrC to get this". I admit that as a DM I'm verrrrrry unlikely to allow a player to get a template [ANY template], but if they do, personally, I'm not going to then charge them tens of thousands of experience points for having succeeded on such a task. Would I also charge them for getting a minor artifact?
(that's why I can't stand half the PrC's in the Tome & Blood; all they are is an attempt to give a player a template)
Now I know that people said that vampires happen "by accident" and "no one *wants* to be a vampire", but I think of the Vampire Chronicles and all the LARPers I know and I have to disagree. The vast majority of the powers that people are bemoaning about the lich are simply the powers to any creature of Type: Undead.
Like liches, vampires are immune to crits. Vampires are immune to mind-affecting damage, most necromancy, are healed by negative energy, etc.
Any old or dying person would probably willingly take vampirism, if offered, to stake, er STAVE, off death.
It takes a role-playing session to convince a vampire to change you or some adventurer-style muscle to force the vampire to drain the victim's Con away. It may be a challenge, but it's something a decent-level party could do.
(Please, I'm not arguing how you would go about this or that "my paladin would never accept such a thing!", I'm just talking the mechanics here; bear with me).
However you arrange to have a vampire change you, the rules are clear: unlike lichdom, it costs NOTHING (no xp, no feat needed) and it is a far quicker (1d4 days after being buried).
So you are, say, an 11th wizard and track down a vampire. Using your spellpower you trap it, force it to drain your Con (using a Control Undead scroll; I don't care about the details), then your golem/undead/standing spells kill the vampire and bury your body. You rise 1d4 days later as an undead, enjoying no master to boss you around and most of the benefits that have been discussed on this thread.
I know of a number of PCs that would cheerfully "force" such an "accident" to them. Furthermore, unlike lycanthropes, the vampire template HAS no known cure; it's not a temporary situation. Once you're a vamp, you're a vamp.
So should this player be penalized 5 levels for playing by the rules? Should the lich also be penalized 5 levels for playing by the rules (and paying on top of that)? These are *major* Rule 0 items to say "this is wrong; you must play a 5 level PrC to get this". I admit that as a DM I'm verrrrrry unlikely to allow a player to get a template [ANY template], but if they do, personally, I'm not going to then charge them tens of thousands of experience points for having succeeded on such a task. Would I also charge them for getting a minor artifact?
(that's why I can't stand half the PrC's in the Tome & Blood; all they are is an attempt to give a player a template)
Well lets look at the wide variety of way's one can become a lich.
There is the monster manual's 120k Price, which Sword & Sorcery takes one step further with the true ritual (Lich) is requires 120k and 2000 xp from each character involved in the ritual.
You can become a Crypt Lord also Relics & Rituals, if you took to many levels in a class, before deciding to enter it, you may get energy drained to enter the class, since that is a prerequiste.
Tome & Bloods: The pale master brings you pretyt close to being a lich, over 10 levels, liek the crypt lord does.
Alot of options most of which require you to spend time developing the power slowly, or burning XP's so I think the arguments about slow progression are valid.
There is the monster manual's 120k Price, which Sword & Sorcery takes one step further with the true ritual (Lich) is requires 120k and 2000 xp from each character involved in the ritual.
You can become a Crypt Lord also Relics & Rituals, if you took to many levels in a class, before deciding to enter it, you may get energy drained to enter the class, since that is a prerequiste.
Tome & Bloods: The pale master brings you pretyt close to being a lich, over 10 levels, liek the crypt lord does.
Alot of options most of which require you to spend time developing the power slowly, or burning XP's so I think the arguments about slow progression are valid.
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Voadam
Legend
I'm sticking with my no ECL for in game events. Your levels of wizard is your mastery of magic, it does not get harder to learn magic by becoming a lich.
Lich is a very big power up for a wizard. Some PCs gain lots of magic items, some become blessed by the gods, some get templates added to them, and some get lots of permanent stat drains by undead or powerful curses. Thems the breaks. If you miss a bunch of games the others get ahead of you even though it makes them more powerful if they level up ahead of you.
I have no problem with a PC who succesfully becomes a lich being more powerful than his mortal companions.
However, as far as gaining the template, I don't have the MM in front of me just the srd but the 120K and 4800xp is just for the phylactery. It does not make you a lich.
I believe mongoose's necromancy book has a method for turning into a lich but it is very risky and not assured of working.
I believe the problem here is how the PC is becoming a lich, not what game effects happen after that transformation.
Becoming a lich should not be an easy thing to do. Just making an item capable of being used as a phylactery for that character should not be sufficient, only the first or an intermediary step.
Don't make liches less powerful, just make them really tough to accomplish.
Lich is a very big power up for a wizard. Some PCs gain lots of magic items, some become blessed by the gods, some get templates added to them, and some get lots of permanent stat drains by undead or powerful curses. Thems the breaks. If you miss a bunch of games the others get ahead of you even though it makes them more powerful if they level up ahead of you.
I have no problem with a PC who succesfully becomes a lich being more powerful than his mortal companions.
However, as far as gaining the template, I don't have the MM in front of me just the srd but the 120K and 4800xp is just for the phylactery. It does not make you a lich.
I believe mongoose's necromancy book has a method for turning into a lich but it is very risky and not assured of working.
I believe the problem here is how the PC is becoming a lich, not what game effects happen after that transformation.
Becoming a lich should not be an easy thing to do. Just making an item capable of being used as a phylactery for that character should not be sufficient, only the first or an intermediary step.
Don't make liches less powerful, just make them really tough to accomplish.
Voadam
Legend
While I think that can be a fine route to becoming a lich, there are some problems if that is the only way. It won't match up to the template in the MM. You will have five levels of hit points, BAB advancement, save advancement and skills. Plus it will add +5 to CR instead of +2.
That is a +4 to will save and +1 to ref and fort at level 5
You wouldn't have a level 12 wizard with the lich template, you'd have a 12wizard 5 lich.
That is a +4 to will save and +1 to ref and fort at level 5
You wouldn't have a level 12 wizard with the lich template, you'd have a 12wizard 5 lich.
Jeremy
Explorer
So if you did allow a person a template, say Half-Dragon, would you make the party consist of say a human 10th level figher 10 and a half dragon 10th level fighter? Why not? Because they aren't balanced?
Penalyzed for playing by the rules? No, he is merely slowing his advancement; in-game, because he is not as challenged and not forced to adapt as quickly, and out-of-game, to allow the rest of the party to catch up to his level of power.
Jeremy
Explorer
Voadam said:
1) The pseudo class does not grant BAB, Saves, or Skills. It grants extremely potent special abilities gradually to keep the character balanced in the D&D world.
2) Challenge Rating does not in any way, shape, or form equal equivalent level. A lich template affects the challenge rating of an opponent you face in one combat by about +2 because he doesn't have a lot of time to get use out of his abilities. A lich template bumps the power level of a PC up by about 5 or 6 levels according to what he can accomplish, how he compares to other PCs, and what challenges him.
Just clarifications. Vehement yes, but not spiteful, no offense intended. Just a pet peeve of mine. As RogueJK very eloquently states frequently CR != ECL.
Voadam
Legend
The class artoomis posted above has BAB, skills, and saves as a wizard but no spell advancement and the lich powers spread out over five levels.
+5 CL does equal +5 CR under the base rules given for CR. Yes I know that is not always an accurate representation of power/challenge but there it is.
ECL for template is separate but Artoomis and I were referring to his actual prestige class.
Be as vehement as you want, just be accurate in what you are tyring to correct.
+5 CL does equal +5 CR under the base rules given for CR. Yes I know that is not always an accurate representation of power/challenge but there it is.
ECL for template is separate but Artoomis and I were referring to his actual prestige class.
Be as vehement as you want, just be accurate in what you are tyring to correct.
A sane DM would never allow a PC to trap and force a vampire that will be killed to turn a PC into a free willed vampire.
Plus, a vampire has a HUGE disadvantage that a lich has not: A heavy and vulnerable coffin (much more vulnerable than a phylactery IMO) and the total and absolute inability to see the light of day ! That's not just a role-playing disadavantage, it's clearly a mechanical disadvantage ! It cuts your adventuring time by half, and is a real pain in the arse for the companions. "What, we're stranded. Oh yeah, I forgot mister Vampire forgot his sunscreen ! Sigh !"
That's not a rightful way to settle "by the book" something that shouldn't happen to a PC. Templates are a DM's tool to create meaner vampire/lich/lycanthrope/whatever. Not a mean for a PC to quickly gain unconscequencial power.
Plus, a vampire has a HUGE disadvantage that a lich has not: A heavy and vulnerable coffin (much more vulnerable than a phylactery IMO) and the total and absolute inability to see the light of day ! That's not just a role-playing disadavantage, it's clearly a mechanical disadvantage ! It cuts your adventuring time by half, and is a real pain in the arse for the companions. "What, we're stranded. Oh yeah, I forgot mister Vampire forgot his sunscreen ! Sigh !"
That's not a rightful way to settle "by the book" something that shouldn't happen to a PC. Templates are a DM's tool to create meaner vampire/lich/lycanthrope/whatever. Not a mean for a PC to quickly gain unconscequencial power.
