What Happens When You Go Lich?

[Voadam]

So if you did allow a person a template, say Half-Dragon, would you make the party consist of say a human 10th level figher 10 and a half dragon 10th level fighter? Why not? Because they aren't balanced?

Penalyzed for playing by the rules? No, he is merely slowing his advancement; in-game, because he is not as challenged and not forced to adapt as quickly, and out-of-game, to allow the rest of the party to catch up to his level of power.

For me it would depend. If they were starting with it from day one as a race or a starting high level PC then I would apply an ECL. I want starting characters to be balanced. If in the game a character became a champion of the dragons and blessed by their gods gaining the template that way, then I would not retroactively give him an xp penalty even if he was more powerful than other PCs.

 

[Jeremy]

Quick question, then a different way of looking at things.

First, the question. If you began a campaign at level 5 and one of the characters wanted to play a lich with all the benefits would you assign an ECL to his character to balance out the starting PC's?

Second, an analogy. To those of you who don't think this tranformation constitutes enough increase in power to warrant slower advancement for the character here is an interesting view point.

A balanced party encounters an artifact. One of the party (the guy who is mainly concerned with power and doesn't really stick to any particular role-playing concept) lunges for the item before knowing what it does.

This character is suddenly infused with energy gaining a permanent +7 increase to base attack, 50 hit points, +3 to all his saves, and gains both uncanny dodge and the ability to rage 2/day like a barbarian. This was from an item.

Deck of Many Things gave 10,000 XP or Dice of Oli Darma or what have you. Regardless, an item just granted 7 levels of barbarian. Do you keep the character at the same level and just give him all the abilities, or is he now a higher level character? He's a higher level character. He is more powerful, he learns less from unchallenging opponents, he is capable of enduring tougher challenges, and he has more power at his disposal than the typical example of a character his former level.

Regardless of how you implement the change, the fact of the matter is, a character who becomes a lich becomes more powerful than other characters of his level. He is effectively no longer what level he was. Every purpose that the level system serves is now changed. The amount of ability his character brings to the party, the challenge of foes, the amount of XP his character should obtain, every bit. If he walks, talks, and acts like a 16th level character, then he's a 16th level character.

Now you can deal with that in any way your DM sees fit, but Artoomis's suggestion allows the PC to:

1) keep playing alongside the party as his powers develop

2) still gain powers with levels (just really powerful immunities and the ability to respawn, and all the hit points up front instead of gaining base attack and saves)

3) doesn't unbalance the game (this doesn't seem particularly important to some of you, but the DM who apparently is not being told of this thread I'm sure will appreciate this benefit of the plan)

4) slows down advancement without making the player play 10 games with no change in his character's abilities

5) ends up giving you an ECL character (which is what a lich is, period) without sidelining the PC for 120 days while he crafts the phylactery

For those of you who advise just letting him shoot up 5 effective levels, can I play in your games? Can my character spontaneously acquire levels with an investment of gold and some XP that I'm about to recoup x10? Really, this is getting silly now.

Is a lich an ECL character? Yes. He is effectively higher level than a core race because he is dramatically more powerful than them.

Is there a way to deal with ECL midgame for this transformation without shooting up 5 levels or having 50,000 XP to gain inbetween 12th and 13th levels? Yes. Artoomis came up with it.

Is there any better suggestion out on the floor? Not that I've seen so far.

 

[Jeremy]

For me it would depend. If they were starting with it from day one as a race or a starting high level PC then I would apply an ECL. I want starting characters to be balanced. If in the game a character became a champion of the dragons and blessed by their gods gaining the template that way, then I would not retroactively give him an xp penalty even if he was more powerful than other PCs.

Perfect. Now expand on that a little further, you wouldn't apply an XP penalty to him for his new powers, (he'd just be more powerful) BUT would you slow down his advancement?

Would other characters learn more from a life and death encounter with a fire giant than he (the dragon blessed) would handing the fire giant his liver on a platter? Would the other characters deserve a large XP award for barely scraping through an against-the-odds encounter? Would the dragon blessed PC deserve an equally large XP award killing a creature of little or no threat to him?

Forget the lich for a moment, would the dragon blessed PC in this example have a slightly slower advancement rate (that could be simulated by higher level because the difference between levels would be 1000 XP more per level) due to his increased power and decreased risk?

 

[Jeremy]

Skills: 2+Int per level
No spell progression.
BAB is as wizard.
Saves are as wizard.

The class artoomis posted above has BAB, skills, and saves as a wizard but no spell advancement and the lich powers spread out over five levels.

+5 CL does equal +5 CR under the base rules given for CR. Yes I know that is not always an accurate representation of power/challenge but there it is.

ECL for template is separate but Artoomis and I were referring to his actual prestige class.

Be as vehement as you want, just be accurate in what you are tyring to correct.

You are absolutely correct. I had thought it different and must have skipped over that assuming Artoomis had the same idea I had. His vision is slightly different and my take of it was incorrect. Oops.

PS- But I wasn't being vehement about the fact that Artoomis's pseudo class is did or did not have skills/bab/saves. I was very vehemently restating that CR (+2 in this case) is NOT equal to ECL (+5 in this case)(2 != 5). So I'm not a total loon.

 

[Jeremy]

Would a half dragon fiendish level 10 fighter vampire PC advance at the same rate a kobold level 10 fighter would?

So why would a lich wizard 12 advance at the same rate an elf wizard 12 would?

 

[Alejandro]

Because the lich template does not impart an ECL, while being half-dragon and fiendish does?

If the recommended wealth tables from the DMG are used, the lich wizard 12 will have very little else when compared to any other wizard 12.

Like many other DMs, I have reservations about handing out templates without role-playing justification. Time and money are precious commodities, and shouldn't be hand-waved when the safety of the world is at stake. I think we all agree that it would be selfish for the elven necromancer to demand that his companions wait for him to achieve lichdom.

But Jeremy, you sound quite worked up.

 

[Voadam]

Forget the lich for a moment, would the dragon blessed PC in this example have a slightly slower advancement rate (that could be simulated by higher level because the difference between levels would be 1000 XP more per level) due to his increased power and decreased risk?

Well I don't use the standard xp rewards, I give a flat non level dependent amount out depending upon success or failure overall in the night's game not for personal risk and not weighted for level vs CR. So the xp he gets won't be affected by his lack of ECL.

The amount of xp needed for the next level is all that would be affected IMC.

While I don't think it would be unreasonable to make such an adjustment to learning time to represent a character coming to grips with his new powers and trying to advance in a class I don't feel it necessary. In fact, if the net effect is to make the character exactly equal in power to his normal comrades then I would feel that is a serious problem. The blessed character is supposed to have an advantage, just like a character with better stats has an advantage over a character with normal or low stats. If I had introduced it I would want the blessing to be an advantage, not just a different flavor for the character.

 

[trix]

Cool thread.

Artoomis's 5 level prestige class is quite good.

A wizard wouldn't be gainining spell advancement and would be 'weaker' than his/her peers if it wernt for the ability benifits.

With the motive being immortallity, it would open the doors to unlimited level advancement and effectively, the deeper creation and research of magical items which requires a long life to create and research.

As a DM I would allow the prestige class becoming available under the following circumstances:

Alot of research and knowledge the becoming a lich is possible.

One shouldnt 'just' have the option of becoming a lich while fighting their way through dungeons and castles.

Signficant knowledge needs to be obtained.

Take a modern example:

As a person, I know what a helicopter is.
Throwing alot of money and time into research, I could probably make a radio-controlled one. Does this make me a good pilot? Or an electronics engineer? (Probably bought radio control equipment and hope that it works).

Becoming a lich is along the same lines:

I would require the player to acquire the 5 levels in the prestige class. The player would need to acquire significant knowledge or research before gaining a level. Magical items might need to be created as tools for undergoing the lich transformation. (Item 1, Item 2, Item 3, etc). These might have no usefull combat or gaming ability other than an aid in the transformation process.

The raid of a lich's library and/or dedicated time spent in research would be required. Certain creatures might provide important spell components. There would be a significant chance in failing the final level, which would result in death of the wizard. (Otherwise every wizard without morals that has the knowledge would be a lich). Over time the number of lich's would outweigh the number of non-lichs.

I wouldnt restrict the the player to gain levels in the lich prestige class, but I would put an ingame timelimit by which all 5 levels of the prestige class must be completed.

I may/maynot allow a player to store XP towards the advancement of levels since alot of it would be required at higher levels. The window in which lich tranformation must take place might be quite small (a couple of years with specific protection prepared during the first level of transformation or a couple of months or days without said protection). The transformation might take a long time.

Eg: A specific spell/research combination must be cast each moon/whatever, for the next 6 moons. Failing one results in character death or starts character death.

A failiure of a level check would determine whether or not the player had enough information/requirements to advance themselves within the prestige class. (Rolling, at each level, a 2/d20 might negate the level advancement, 1/d20 is character death).

The failiure of a magical item during the transformation process might require the player to construct a new item. Can the player create the item before his life essence drains away?

Example scenario:

Some wizard happens to fall across knowledge on lichs. The tome is the research of some other wizard, or enough to give the insight on what could become.

So the wizard does some research, finds some problems in the result and starts the process.

Now, the conversion process has been started, but the tome was incomplete. The wizard realises this as he isnt what he expected to become. He can feel a change, but does research and may or may not figure out the next step. If the next step isnt figured in time, the wizard's life essence may fade away and character death occurs. The abilities of the Lich might also be proportional to how much life essence s/he managed to capture/loose. You might come across a lich who has Fear @ 10', Partial paralysis touch once per day instead of permanent paralysis at will, etc.

Maybe thats why the tome is incomplete and the origional owner/researcher/author does not exist. (The PCs happen accross the tower of some 'missing' wizard).

The failure of some process might make the wizard lich mad, hence evil, as he accidentaly blocked access to a certain field of magic / ability. (No 7th, 8th or 9th level spells for you! You're magically castrated. Nothing worse than knowing that something exists, but being denied)

Surely a real 'lich' would guard his lich secrets quite well. Would prefer to stay away from civilisation. If the word got out, every wizard would be seeking his library. If found its probably the required complete reference, bar one secret which only he knows.

The obvious trap is the lack of instruction, and hence destruction to any wizard seeking the Manual of Lichdom. It would be an obvious trap to any wizard, so, even the 'complete' reference might seem too good to be true ensuring that 'only those who have nothing to loose' would seek lichdom. hence, more evil lich's than good lichs.

...

-Tim

 

[Artoomis]

Well, it would be perfectly reasonable to take BAB, skills and feats away from the class I proposed, but then it's a pretty hefty exception to the rules.

All I did was make a suggested starting point - the DM should take it from there.

What I tried to do was to find a way, within the rules, for a character to become a FR-type lich (that is, non-evil).

A lich is only intended to be an NPC, so allowing it at all is stretch. My method gives a simple way to handle this without any worries about ECL, etc.

As for vampires - they can only be Chaotic Evil without changing the rules - that, in my book at least, takes them completely out of play.

The bottom line, of course, is to not allow characters to voluntarily increase their power to above that of other player-characters. Involuntarily is a whole 'nother ball of wax, and totally under the DM's control.

 

[rendarkin]

A sane DM would never allow a PC to trap and force a vampire that will be killed to turn a PC into a free willed vampire.

Hmmm... I never can tell with absolute statements like that whether people are being serious or joking. I have to assume on the context you are being serious, but I'm trying to see some humor in there...

How do you rate a "sane DM"? How, in a world full of magical and impossible rules can you say anything would "never" allow something to happen? Does context not matter?

If I ran a campaign with a sane, slow progression and levels earned over years or careful and entertaining play, I can see myself DMing a 20th level party (it wouldn't be the first time...). Templates are applied to creatures of any level. To use an absurd example, a 5th level fighter could have been overwhlemed by a vampire and turned into a vampire slave. Killing the master vampire now leaves my campaign with a 5th level fighter vampire running around, terrorizing people. MwuhahAHAHA!

But I have a 20th level player in my long-standing campaign and he's decided to steal vampiric immortality from this vampire. Rolling up his sleeves, the mage calls up his shield guardian and his iron golem, put on his 20th-level worth of treasure, casts some protective spells, hunts down the vampire and utterly overwhelms him.

Control Undead forcing a vampire to drink someone's blood is a no brainer; that's even in the vampire's nature, so once the poor 5th level fighter fails the save against the 20th level wizard, he cheerfully (and compulsively) kills the mage. The golem and guardian wipe the vampire out (the vampire's powers all neutralized through various wizardly means (wind wall go the gaseous form can't escape, or a wall of force, etc.)

...

What's to not allow as a "sane" DM? How can you possible categorically say "forcing a vampire to do X" is unallowable in any campaign??

That's not a rightful way to settle "by the book" something that shouldn't happen to a PC. Templates are a DM's tool to create meaner vampire/lich/lycanthrope/whatever. Not a mean for a PC to quickly gain unconscequencial power.

Who's to say what should or shouldn't happen to a PC in a "sane" DM's game? Where is it written that the templates are NPC-only? That's your belief; I thought we were discussing the rules as written (I could have been wrong).

(there are of course more and more situations I could consider that may or may not change your mind: What if the DM is running an evil PC game? Would that matter at all? Context is always sooo important)

(Oh, and you just said in your post that a vampire has a lot more limitations, so I don't see where the "unconsequential power" part comes from...)

Curious, as always, about absolute statements that people make...
-Rendarkin