What Has To Be Save-Or-Die?

[keterys]

The petrifies and paralyzes and such are a tricky question in general, but I'm not sure why some of the effects listed are obviously save or die, instead of a bucket of damage.

For example, disintegration. Reduces stuff to dust. Okay.
What makes it more special than a superhot blast of flame... that reduces stuff to ash?
Poisons feel like easy candidates to deal damage, instead of just killing you.
Why does one big necrotic attack just deal damage, and another strike you dead?

I feel like things that bypass hit points should do so for a reason, and that reason should largely be because they need to in order to work at all. If we're already assuming that a strong individual can fight off the (insert deadly effect here) for a round or two as they succeed at saves, you can justify it dealing hp damage until they drop.

I've seen a 3e game that changed save or dies to buckets of damage, and it worked fine. I think it was an optional rule in the epic handbook or on the website that made death effects do like 20 + level d6 damage or something similar. Still scary, of course.

Anyhow, so... save or suck (Medusa) I can understand a heck of a lot better than save or die. Sure, a bodak kills any peasant it sees. They've got like 4 hp. They almost have to save when they see a 1e house cat

Random Idea, totally separate from SoD: more stuff should specify what happens if it reduces you to 0 hp. Like even if disintegrate did damage, it could still have a Special line about destroying people it reduced to 0 hp, bypassing the "dying" stage and making healing a heck of a lot more difficult.

 

[CM]

I guess I have to spread xp around before giving it to Keterys again... Seconded on everything you said.

The thing is, nothing *needs* to be save or die. Instead those iconic effects should have less-lethal and more-lethal versions available. If that requires, for example, less-lethal disintegrate to be a level 5 spell and more-lethal disintegrate to be level 7, then so be it. Or perhaps that petrification attack requires only a successful attack and a single failed save for the lethal version, but the nonlethal version takes several failed saves but deals additional damage and inflicts slowed/immobilized conditions in the process. There's many ways to do this and frankly I think lethality of effects is one of the easier problems to solve.

 

[Knightfall]

My question is: Will "save or die" be a modular concept in D&D Next. Can a DM adjust the lethality of his or her game by simply selecting a non-core option? Or will "save or die" be the core option, and will the modular option be like 4e?

 

[RangerWickett]

If we're using mechanics to represent a world, then lots of things are save or die. How deadly something is depends on how hard it is to save.

If we're using mechanics to represent the traditional tropes of fantasy narratives, then nothing is save or die. 'Hit Points' represent your plot immunity, and so an attack like a medusa's gaze would deal damage and blind you (representing you closing your eyes at the last minute). If it runs you out of hit points, instead you're petrified.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

I think every class in the last 1/4 to 1/3 of the game should have access to some big SoD effects.

I just want them limted, and to have a real chance of not working.


Example: If I were to drop them back into 4e right now I would make 2-3 19th level daily powers they would look like this:

Fighter 19 daily: Death blow (remember that from 2e) target 1 bloodied creature, str vs fort, hit target takes 6w+str, and is stun (Save ends) 1st failed save target is dead.
miss: half damage and daze (save ends)

Wizard 19 daily: Power word kill (minor action) close burst 10 1 bloodied creature in burst. Effect: Target is stuned (save ends) 1st failed save target is dead.

 

[Raith5]

My question is: Will "save or die" be a modular concept in D&D Next. Can a DM adjust the lethality of his or her game by simply selecting a non-core option? Or will "save or die" be the core option, and will the modular option be like 4e?

I really think that this has to be the answer to question. Individual groups have to make a choice about this.

I am not all keen to go back to save or die effects.

I like the fact that in 4th ed PC could actually do something about these effects - it added to the suspense of the game. I quite like seeing the PCs being forced away from their plan and scramble to save a PC with one save to go...

 

[Incenjucar]

Things that are inherently instant death (or "death", or general uselesness):

Monsters and spells that petrify things (medusa, cockatrice, flesh to stone spell)

"Death effects" (finger of death spell, bodaks, etc.)

Paralysis (which really should suffocate you)

Disintegration (no way around this one)

Falling at terminal velocity and hitting the ground, being immersed in lava, and any number of other "real" situations


Things that are not inherently instant death:

Assassin's "death attack" (definitely other ways of handling this)

Fear effects (they really should't disable you as easily as they do in 3.X)

Monk's Quivering Palm

Poison (are there any that do? I've never seen such a thing. But you're right that even nerve gas takes time)

***

I think there's a bevy of things that just need to be instantaneous to be credible at all, but certainly there are other things that don't.

So, basically, spellcasters can have death effects?

 

[Hassassin]

I agree that disintegrate does not need to be a SOD, damage and alternate consequences for dying is fine. In fact I don't need any particular thing absolutely *needs* to, but something probably should.

One thing where 3e SODs broke down was DCs. A high level character had so low Poor saves that even monsters or spellcasters of lower level had a good chance of instakilling them.

SOD type effects should have a lower chance of succeeding than equivalent level abilities that do something else. If you go against a monster five levels above you, you should have a chance of dying in one shot. If you are five levels above, maybe there should be no chance.

Basically, natural 1 and 20 in saves don't work.

 

[Ahnehnois]

So, basically, spellcasters can have death effects?

I'm all for advocating a wound system (which might or might not involve saving throws) of some sort that gives the realistic ability to kill or disable a foe immediately with a well-placed strike. However, that's through the hp system. I don't think save-or-die is the right way to do it mechanically. Spellcasters work primarily through saves, fighters and rogues work primarily through attack rolls and hp. Reconceptualizing the hp system was not the thread topic, so my response may not accurately reflect my broader beliefs.

Believe me, I'm all for giving the fighters more deadly crits and the rogues the ability to truly stab someone in the back.

 

[keterys]

Spellcasters work primarily through saves, fighters and rogues work primarily through attack rolls and hp.

Dunno, if you made a short list of the most iconic D&D wizard spells, I'm pretty sure magic missile, fireball, meteor swarm would be right up there... and that's all hp damage. Prior to 3e, we never really took SoDs because frankly they didn't have enough of a chance of success, whereas the damage from spells was _fantastic_ compared to other options.

'Hit Points' represent your plot immunity, and so an attack like a medusa's gaze would deal damage and blind you (representing you closing your eyes at the last minute). If it runs you out of hit points, instead you're petrified.

That's a very intriguing point. So the attack might look like:

Hit: X damage. The target may choose to either be blinded until the end of its next turn or be petrified (no save).
Special: Any creature reduced to 0 hp by this attack is petrified (no save).

or even

Effect: The target may choose to be blinded until the end of its next turn.
Hit: X damage.
Special: If the target is bloodied and not blinded, or is reduced to 0 hp by this attack, it is petrified (no save).

A lot of interesting design room there.