What have you done with the sacred cow?

[Gez]

Re: Re: Re: What have you done with the sacred cow?

Okay, is it just me, or is there no #8?

Another slain sacred cow -- there is no 8 between 7 and 9. People use a nonal system: 0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 9. It could has well have been 0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8; but it's better to keep the 9 as the end number. Beside, the 8 got confused to easily with the infinity symbol, and you don't handle infinity like another number. So, 8 has been put to the axe. I say good ridance. Ne'er liked it. 8 could not exist in D&D, because there are barbarians, and they can't count. Remember also that 8 is an unlucky number -- read the Discworld books.

 

[Lord Zardoz]

Most of these changes are not particularly uncommon to see. Many of them are among the first things that are changed when someone customises the rules. I have either ran or played under similar changes myself. To me, nothing here really strikes me as being a Sacred Cow. They are more like Traditional Turkeys.

1) Everyone cannot speak a universal language, 'Common'. While 'Westron' as a merchant language is common through out a large portion of the principal continent, it is no means ubiqitous.

I ran Birthright, but as a more 'normal' campaign world. As it is written, there is no common tounge. There are the racial tounges for the non-humans, and one language for each human culture (Anuirean, Khinasi, Rjurik, Brecht, and Vos).

2) Governments do not tolerate armed bands of vigilante groups; noble rank is required to own a sword, licenses are required to transport weapons between jurisdictions, persons found on a lord's property (most of the landscape) with weapons without papers will be assumed to be bandits.

Elements of the above were used in my Birthright campaign. People wandering around cities armed to the teeth were generally either asked to disarm or were forced to pay a weapons tax. And I think many campaigns incorporate local town guards to prevent the players from slaughtering people in a bar fight.

3) Starting characters do not necessarily have easy access to affordable steel weapons and armor, usually because they are expensive items and in many cases illegal.

In many settings, the culture of the area determines what sort of armor is available.

4) The economy is coin based only above a certain degree of wealth. Taxes are still by and large payed in things like livestock, grain, staves of wood, labor, and so forth. Two peasants will almost certainly agree to exchange goods between each other rather than coin.

This one is actually rather unique, since it directly addresses miscelaneous purchases. Many campaigns only track the purchase of weapons and specific equipment.

5) No orcs. No halflings. No gnomes. Elves have to sleep just like anyone else. No Druids. No monks... well no martial arts monks. Well, not anywhere I've ever described.

I played in a friends campaign that is so heavily customized with respect to the classes that it is barely recognizable as D&D. And I have played in campaigns that restricted or removed certain races.

Here are what I consider the true sacred cows of D&D.

1) Humans are the dominant culture.
1a) That culture is Feudal in nature.
2) Elves, Dwarves, Halflings, and Gnomes are all predominantly good races.
2a) Elves like forests. Dwarves like Mountains.
3) The land and climate resembles Midevil Europe.
4) The existence of gods is blatently obvious, as they take an intrest in mortal affairs.
5) Slaying monsters, Rescuing Princesses, Finding lost Treasures, and surviving elaborate traps makes you more powerful then mere mortals, to the point where it takes several good stabbings with a sword to make you get dead. And very often, it wont take.

Change the above drastically, especially number 5, and then I will be impressed.

END COMMUNICATION

 

[Gez]

Re: Re: What have you done with the sacred cow?

Here are what I consider the true sacred cows of D&D.
1) Humans are the dominant culture.
1a) That culture is Feudal in nature.

Here's one I've roughly slain. The Dwarven Confederation, for example, is far more important politically, militarily, and economically than even both human-ruled countries together.

2) Elves, Dwarves, Halflings, and Gnomes are all predominantly good races.

This one is auto-slain.
Halflings are no more predominantly good, they are neutrals like humans.
Gnomes are usually depicted as CE tinkers that just want to create silly steaming machines (in a very chaotic fashion), without caring for the consequences of the build-in misfunctions for the lives of others (and their own), this uncaring being the evil part.
Dwarves are usually depicted as CE crude battleragers, that live only to steal treasure, kill monsters (orcs, goblins, and elves), get drunk, and have barfight.
Elves are usually depicted as LE melnibonëans, coming from a distant island, having a decadent culture older than humanity (and constantly reminding people about that), feeling themselves superior to even dragons and (non-elven) gods, and having absolutely no regard for the sanctity of life, even that of their fellow elves; slaying, slaying, slaying thoughtlessly for even the most obscure of reasons -- and every elf is taught from childhood to use weapons, bow and sword, in order to kill people.

2a) Elves like forests. Dwarves like Mountains.

True, these are archetypes. However, the huge amount of love for elves has spawned elves that don't like forests. You have mountain elves (GH grey elves, for example), sea elves, tundra elves, city elves... Each a distinct subrace, of course.

Dwarves are less mutable, but I've see poney-riding steppe dwarves somewhere, IIRC in Dragonlance. I also know of people making the dwarves sea-going vikings.

3) The land and climate resembles Medieval Europe.
4) The existence of gods is blatently obvious, as they take an intrest in mortal affairs.

I'll concede you these ones, they are what define a D&D-ish fantasy setting.

5) Slaying monsters, Rescuing Princesses, Finding lost Treasures, and surviving elaborate traps makes you more powerful than mere mortals, to the point where it takes several good stabbings with a sword to make you get dead. And very often, it wont take.

Yeah. It's expressely in the rules of D&D. You gain levels with experience. Changing that would require to change the game. It's the same kind of sacred cows than having classes and levels.

Sure, it would be fun for a one-shot if things were handled more realistically -- surviving a fight or a trap would not make you tougher, but frailer from aftereffects of wounds and poison. Lost treasures would crumble to dust when exhumed, destroyed by worms, rust and time. Princesses would be already "wed to" (read "raped by") their abductor, when they would not be already eaten by the ogre, vampirized by the vampire, or sacrificed by the cultist. What's the point of kidnapping a princess and holding her in a cell, waiting for adventurers to arrive ? If you don't want to do anything naughty with her, you could just ask for a ransom, that'll be lower than the wages adventurer asks. Monsters would merely be disguised highwaymen, or starving wolf or bear. Maybe a lion or hyena imported from a faraway land.

But is that what D&D is really about ?

Change the above drastically, especially number 5, and then I will be impressed.

If you could find Mile Christi, an OOP French RPG where you play historical templars, you would be impressed. Nearly no fantasy element in it (very low magic, only heretics and pagans have sometimes some sort of magic), and especially none of the sacred cows, except of course 1 & 1a (and a bit 3, if you're not in a crusade). 5 is absolutely not there. Your character becomes weaker and weaker once the benefit of training and experience is no more sufficient to compensate injuries and aging. The game is OOP because you have to be a history major to appreciate it.

END COMMUNICATIONS

Roger.

 

[Celebrim]

Slaying monsters, Rescuing Princesses, Finding lost Treasures, and surviving elaborate traps makes you more powerful then mere mortals, to the point where it takes several good stabbings with a sword to make you get dead. And very often, it wont take.

If you can find any successful RPG that isn't about defeating villians, righting wrongs, aquiring power, and solving puzzles then I'll be particularly impressed. I'd always be interested in what you do do in such a game. Even the most soap operic melodramatic RPGs I've been involved in had the above elements as the subtext of the intrapersonal angst.

And yes, defeating heroes, committing wrongs, acquiring power, and solving puzzles counts as the same thing as far as I'm concerned. No more different than a gothgrrl and a cheerleader.

 

[Vaxalon]

If you can find any successful RPG that isn't about defeating villians, righting wrongs, aquiring power, and solving puzzles then I'll be particularly impressed. I'd always be interested in what you do do in such a game. Even the most soap operic melodramatic RPGs I've been involved in had the above elements as the subtext of the intrapersonal angst.

Hm. Baron Munchausen?

 

[Psion]

I'm a little more realistic when it comes to language. Learning laguages is still cheap, but the closest thing to a common tongue (the trade tongue that sprung up in the biggest hub of a tradeport in the region) is less than universal.

Adventurers do exist, but are essentially treated as wandering mercenaries and their acceptance varies. In the young baronies (which are plagues by giants and drow) they are pretty much considered the norm, but in more civilized regions, they are required to register with the local government; some nations even require that all warriors be sponsored by a noble house.

I like most of the conventions that make D&D the game it is (classes, levels, slot spell system, etc.), but HP bug me a little and I jimmy it a little with my house rules. (See this post in the house rules forum.)

 

[CRGreathouse]

Celebrim:

My campaign is similar to yours on some of these points. While a common trade language exists, it is hardly a substitute for all other languages.

I completely agree with point #2: the idea of 'professional adventurers' doesn't exist in my world.

IMC, though, adventurers, even starting ones, can have access to steel -- though town guards and the like may only be able to afford iron, adventurers are special.

Point #4 is the same for me, too, but rarely comes into play.

I use all of the races and classes you disallow in #5, though, and allow others as PCs (hobgoblins, planetouched, etc.)

 

[Lord Zardoz]

Hehe

I got more responses to my list of what I consider sacred cows then I expected.

Anyway, before it becomes too much of a theme, just because I listed something as a sacred cow does not mean I disapprove of it. Particularly with regards to, number five from my list.

Also, after thinking a bit about it, item number 2 on my list does get changed up quite a bit, at least with respect to alignment. But my inclusion on the list still stands, and does so for one particular reason.

When people create a custom world, what most frequently seems to happen is listed at follows, typically in the order given.

1) Create several human kingdoms. At least one is an evil dictatorship bent on conquest.
2) Create a few gods. At least one is backing the evil dictatorship.
3) Create the game's history and backdrop, detailing the conflicts between the good kingdom and evil kingdom.
4) Draw a rough map of the world / continent. decide where the kingdoms belong.
5) Realize that while your allowing Elves and Dwarves, that you have not given either a kingdom.
6) Shove the dwarves into a random mountain range. They are insular and tend to be decent fighters. They dont interact in the wars between the human kingdoms. Ram the elves into a handy forest. They are insular and tend to be decent mages. They dont interact in the wars between the human kingdoms either.

I guess my point is that you never see say, dwarves that build pyramids and live in the desert. Or elves that live in a roman type republic and dwell on the open plains as farmers.

END COMMUNICATION

 

[Henry]

Originally posted by Lord Zardoz

Originally posted by Lord Zardoz
Here are what I consider the true sacred cows of D&D.

1) Humans are the dominant culture.
1a) That culture is Feudal in nature.
2) Elves, Dwarves, Halflings, and Gnomes are all predominantly good races.
2a) Elves like forests. Dwarves like Mountains.
3) The land and climate resembles Midevil Europe.
4) The existence of gods is blatently obvious, as they take an intrest in mortal affairs.
5) Slaying monsters, Rescuing Princesses, Finding lost Treasures, and surviving elaborate traps makes you more powerful then mere mortals, to the point where it takes several good stabbings with a sword to make you get dead. And very often, it wont take.

At first I really thought I had nothing to offer this thread, since I'm not really in the business of bovine slaughter in my D&D worlds. However, in my homebrew campaign world:

1) Humans are important, but not necessarily dominant. In fact, they must continually fight to retain what they have against nature and monstrous beasts. Their culture is not feudal, as mercantilistic, analogous to late renaissance. Nobles still hold titles and power, but mostly because of old money or monopolistic businesses.

4) The gods are obvious, but they are on their way out. Mainly, their existance has been waning for almost 1000 years, and inside of another 500 or so, there will likely be MASSIVE falling away from the gods. When magic was unleashed about a millenium ago, anyone who presented strong faith in a being or philosophy can tap into the same forces that the gods do.

The more beings who can tap into this force, the more powerful that god or philosophy. ANYONE with enough devotion in a power (i.e. Enough levels in cleric) can heal wounds, cure blindness and feed the hungry. As they proselytize, they can gain access to higher powers as their shared belief takes on a form all its own. (I borrowed the idea in part from modern Wicca.) The old gods, now faced with the idea that they can be powerless (or worse - they themselves don't know, because their omniscience has been broken since a millenium ago) have kicked into overdrive to win and keep followers.

The funny thing is, some of the powers see this change as a not altogether bad thing, because the gods were responsible for some pretty hinky intra-religious wars, and figure that evolution of the godhood could be positive. Yes, some of my deities in my campaign have a death wish.

 

[Remathilis]

I considered the following changes for a new world, then changed my mind for a more traditional approach. The ideas are solid though...

1.) No common demi-humans. They are replaced by a rat-man type race, a winged hunter race, spirits of nature, a psionic race, and a intelligent/civilized orc race.
2.) Paladin a prestige class, like Blackguard
3.) bard a prestige class, like Gleeman from WoT
4.) Woodsman, not ranger
5.) Defense bonus ala other d20 modules
6.) All monks evil, ala Scarlet Brotherhood.
7.) Platemail not available, banded the best available.
8.) No exotic weapons for the most part.
9.) only 9 gods, one per alignment.
10.) Lots of Book of Vile Darkness Influences.

The project was scrapped excpet for the last 4 (7-10), which became the basis for another world. Some of the races mentioned made it over also.