What I hate about A Song of Ice and Fire (Spoilers Ahead)

[Son_of_Thunder]

Well thought out rebuttals, I like

In commenting on the lack of a moral center exhibited by the characters in Martin's books Son of Thunder said, "I don't believe that that kind of society would survive very long in real life."

Greetings all,

Let me make myself clear on this. It seems others have a misconception of my belief on this. I know these societies existed as others have pointed out specifically the middle ages. But they didn't last long either. From what my understanding is, this type of society in Martin's world has existed for hundreds of years. Am I correct in this you Seven Kingdoms sages? Even the roman empire didn't last as long.

Again, Thank you for the well thought out comments.

Son of Thunder

 

[eXodus]

reserved for a later post

 

[Desdichado]

Uhh, the Roman empire certainly did last for hundreds of years. As did the medieval European kingdoms. England is essentially the same political unit today that it was following 1066, with only gradual, evolutionary change.

 

[King_Stannis]

Uhh, the Roman empire certainly did last for hundreds of years...

absolutely. over 500 years, if my history serves me correctly.


EDIT: i should clarify...i mean the time from caesar augustus to the fall of the western empire was around 500 years. of course the republic and eastern empires lasted even longer, as told by shark below.

 

[Storminator]

Re: Well thought out rebuttals, I like

Greetings all,

Let me make myself clear on this. It seems others have a misconception of my belief on this. I know these societies existed as others have pointed out specifically the middle ages. But they didn't last long either. From what my understanding is, this type of society in Martin's world has existed for hundreds of years. Am I correct in this you Seven Kingdoms sages? Even the roman empire didn't last as long.

Again, Thank you for the well thought out comments.

Son of Thunder

This sort of depends on what you mean by "society existing." If you the standards of human behavior, that has been going on in Martin's world for a long time. But if you discount the political and religious upheavals, standards of human behavior didn't change that much from pre-biblical time to the Enlightenment in our world. That spans several thousand years.

If you are talking about tightly organized societies, including the political and religious structures, Martin's world isn't all that stable. There have been a number of massive political upheavals: current struggle, the greyjoy rebellion, Robert's revolution, the Targaren's conquest, etc. There have also been numerous religious revolutions: current surge of the Fire god (and hinted return of the Green), older import of the Seven, the First Men, the Green Men.

So I would say that Martin's world is fairly plausible.

On other tangents:

One of the things I really like about Martin's world is the great shifts in perspective. In the early part of the trilogy Jaime Lannister is pure villain. Nothing but bad things to say about him, and when the books shift focus to his character you're all set to hate him. And he turns out to be a pretty decent guy.

Unfortunately, my predictive tool has gone to hell. I figured out that if any one faction looked to be in good shape it was in for a world of hurt in short order. And now, of course, everyone looks weak and vulnerable. So who goes down next?

PS

 

[Eryndur]

well...

The length of the Middle Ages is always debatable (I've struggled with this at length, having a degree in this very subject.) For ease of use, I reference it as a period of 1000 years, from 500 to 1500. Loosely, this is from the last dregs of the Western Roman Empire being swept away to the Renaissance in full bloom.
The culture in asoaif is definitely medieval in nature, stemming from the same roots (Valyria=Rome), but not yet at the height of culture found in the Renaissance.

So, saying that the peoples of Westeros have been living in this "awful" state for a few centuries isn't outrageous at all.

And trust me, life wasn't just bad in the Middle Ages. It's bad all the time. I don't need to tell you this. Just watch the news. Sure, advances have been made in the standard of living, but to say people were MORE morally bankrupt back in the Middle Ages than they are today is ridiculous. As someone earlier noted, the alignment of Lawful Good is EXTREMELY rare.

And just to reiterate: people swear every day. More people swear than don't. And in today's world, people swear MUCH more often than we see the characters in asoiaf swear. It's not a constant stream of meaningless obscenity like I hear every day. Needless to say, the same goes for sex. People are into some weird crap out there, and having been exposed to this knowledge, reading about the exploits of incestuous twins and a small dwarf don't bother me. They also don't titillate me in a cheap way. I read those passage, enjoy them, and move on. They serve the story. They expand on the character much more than if Martin had simply stated, "And then Tyrion called Shae to his bedroom and shut the door. The next morning...".

People are, by nature, morally grey. It is much interesting to read about a character who you are SURE is irredeemable, and then rejoice when you see that this is not the case, that there is still some good in them (Vader, anyone?). Who is by and far readers' favorite POV now in the series? Jaime, of course. Because we found out there's more than meets the eye to this guy. I believe Sandor Clegane falls into the same category, even though he doesn't have a POV (yet).

And it also irritates me when people claim that Tolkien's world is black and white, good guys vs. bad guys. Though Tolkien doesn't even approach the ambiguity of Martin's characters, there is still wonderful diversity in his masterful creation. I'll just list a few, and THINK about these characters, and tell me if you truly believe they are "guys wearing white" or "guys wearing black". I sure don't: Galadriel, Aragorn, Boromir (duh), Frodo, Sam, Gollum, Feanor, Thingol, Melkor, Thorin, Turin, and the list goes on and on. And this is considered by most to be high fantasy! Please.

Give me moral ambiguity any day of the week. So much more fascinating. It makes me work when I read. Rather than stifling my imagination, it forces me to alter my perceptions, to really think about a characer before I decide I want to root for them. When I know who the hero is, and who the bad guy is, then I get bored. And even better, when you finally decide who you want to root for, he/she usually ends up getting killed! I LOVE IT!!!

Martin is THE single best fantasy author working today, IMNSHO. If there were more like him, the sci-fi/fantasy section in the bookstore wouldn't be the laughing stock it is today.

Eryndur

 

[SHARK]

Greetings!

Well, just to add a historical note, Rome was first established in 753 BC, with the formation of the Republic lasting until the acsension of Caesar Augustus, and the establishment of the Empire in 27 BC, which then lasted until the fall of the Western Roman Empire in 476 AD. Thus, the first half of Rome's reign lasted, if you will, 1229 years. The Eastern Roman Empire, headquartered at Byzantium, continued on until 1452, when it finally fell to the Turks. That makes 976 years. Taken as a whole, Rome lasted for 2205 years.

Thus, first half, second half, or taken together, I'd say that is an awesome accomplishment.

It should also be noted, that while certainly "gritty" and full of morally grey people, there were indeed people who exemplified the blackest of evil, as well as the virtuous, and noble.

While I think gritty realistic stories may seem "realistic" compared to true nobility, that is only because we are so used to such moral malaise in so many. There are, and have been, morally virtuous people throughout history, rare as they are, but still, their absence from novels can be seen as "unrealistic" as well.

It is the noble, the GOOD, that give us hope, and inspire others to greatness.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

 

[Sammelsurum]

If you want a book with a little bit of that "different shades of grey" and some scenes not appropriate for minors, but without
leaving you disgusted and in a foul mood, then I recommend Bloodrights by N. Lee Wood. It´s a really good read, and quite different.

I´ve recommended it before and noone takes notice, don´t miss it!

 

[Razuur]

Or maybe try reading the Prydain Chrinicles by Lloyd Alexander. It is very high fantasy Son of Thunder, which is right up your alley!

Razuur

 

[Son_of_Thunder]

Howdy Y'all

I don't believe that that kind of society would survive very long in real life

I had a feeling I shouldn't have posted this. It illicited responses such as

People are, by nature, morally grey

.

I don't want to drag real world stuff into this topic. With the vast differences in cultural and religious belief I don't want to take it there. So just ignore this aspect of my post please.

On a lighter note. This thread has received some well thought out responses and I thank the authors for such. Basically I just wanted to point out that this is my opinion and I don't care what you say, George R. R. Martin isn't the king of modern fantasy, unless you have the right to crown him as such of course.

Son of Thunder