What I hate about A Song of Ice and Fire (Spoilers Ahead)

[Tsyr]

Of course Rand can't die before TG, not if the weave wills it so.

Remember though, in WoT the pattern (A.K.A. Fate) is a very REAL thing. It DOES have power to do things like that. It's not just "luck"... argueably, there is no "luck" in the Jordanverse at all.

Wheel of time is a book ABOUT destiny, that was made clear from book one, it shouldn't come as a surprise. It's the underlying plot of the book. Which I actualy find refreshing, too many books/stories seem to be about changing fate (Raistlin in Dragonlance, Vanyel in Valdemar, Luke in Star Wars, etc)... Wheel of Time shows that some things aren't escableable no matter how much you might try. Mat doesn't WANT to lead the Band of the Red Hand, Perrin doesn't WANT to turn in to what he did, Rand didn't WANT to be the Dragon Reborn... but they couldn't change destiny.

IMNSHO, of course.

 

[Eryndur]

Wheel of time is a book ABOUT destiny

Yes, that's exactly the reason why I stated I like the series. The question of predestination is explored in great depth in Jordan's series, and I love it.
So, I know my man Rand is going to make it to the big battle, and I enjoy the ride (the ...VERY... long...ride...).
I like Jordan because one of the main themes is the exploration of "what does it mean to be both the savior and destroyer of the world?" Even more -- "what does it mean to be both the savior and destroyer of the world, and I'm it?!"
It kind of tackles some of the same issues that Scorsese addressed in The Last Temptation of Christ.

So, yeah, I dig it.

But Martin is different. It turns all the fantasy conventions on their collective heads. Normally, I'd chock this up to shock value, but he accomplished the extraordinary task of not only doing this, but also telling a compelling story in a masterful way.

If WoT is a book ABOUT destiny, then aSoIaF is a book about the lack thereof. Opposite ends of the spectrum, both excellent reads.

But hey, when it comes down to it, we all know in our hearts that Gary Gygax's Gord books were the pinnacle of fantasy literature, so why are we even discussing these two frauds? C,mon people...

Eryndur

 

[SSS-Druid]

I have to admit that one of the things that struck me about Martin's work is, despite the label of 'fantasy' the nearly complete absence of any element of the supernatural, save in the existence of superstition in the world. Especially in the first two books.

He manages to present for us a world that magic has abandoned, leaving only legends. And when he re-introduces it to us, it is as wonderous to the reader as it is to those living it.

I also heavily respect any author that does not guarantee a Clause 13 for any character. There is something lacking in those supposedly terse scenes of violence where the protagonist has no chance of genuinely dying. This book makes you dread violence - as one should - because someone you like may die.

Bravo. Any author that can make me care about a character (whether I like or hate them, I'm not ambivalent) is okay by me.

And as for the profanity and all? I don't need a spic n span world. The modern day, for all of our "civilization," isn't spic n span. And one note - a setting where many characters use profanity simply makes those who don't shine all the more.

 

[WizarDru]

It's my belief that Ned Stark's primary role was to underscore this very point. I nearly dropped the book when they killed him, so sure I was that he'd make it through. I kept trying to figure out how this would turn out to be a trick, and quickly realized that it wasn't, and that bad things happen to good people.

There are plenty of heroes in Martin's series...but there are no pristine characters who always follow the sign of righteousness. At least, not in the sunshine fashion of say, characters from Eddings work. Jordan's characters are a more noble group, but they too see the necessity of pragmatism in the face of armageddon. They will do what they must, even if they don't like it....but are essentially very likeable characters. Martin's characters aren't always very likeable...but they're always compelling.

I love the WoT, and I don't mind it taking a long time. What I mind is that Jordan appears stymied by his own creation, and his gotten bogged down in trying to continue it. I worry that it's going to devolve into a 'War against the Chtorr'...with the books getting more and more distant, until the author is perrenially promising the next book every year, and never delivering. Or worse, that he manages to release a new book periodically, but the story fails to progress significantly. The most recent book gives me hope that this will not happen. I hope.

That said, there's nothing wrong with disliking this style of fiction. But I've never said anything bad about Dragonlance, for the record. It's not my cup of tea, but I know many people who enjoyed it, until it became something of a cash-cow for TSR, who milked it far more than they probably should have. The word Xanth comes to mind.

 

[drothgery]

And as for the profanity and all? I don't need a spic n span world. The modern day, for all of our "civilization," isn't spic n span. And one note - a setting where many characters use profanity simply makes those who don't shine all the more.

Kay doesn't write a 'spic-and-span' world. Cook doesn't write a spin-n-span world. Brust doesn't write a spic-and-span world. Even Jordan doesn't. But I can't deal with a book where gory scenes are something other than rare and shcoking; in Martin's world they're utterly commonplace.

It's why I won't pick up Goodkind or Donaldson, and why I stopped after two books with Martin.

 

[Shard O'Glase]

I couldn't even get through book one of Martin. Everyone likes different things, but his characters didn't grip me, neither did his story or writing style. As for the gore, morality, perversions etc. I never saw it as some shades of grey thing, to me it was pure shock value, which sometimes can be entertaining, but even failed in that respect for me.

And whoever said terry prachett for humor, huh? Sorry that is just one more author whose popularity I never could understand, I really thought his books sucked and hard. For me humor in fantasy you got to go with Robert Asprin, even if the Myth series seems to have died after leaving us at a cliffhanger. (which really irritates me because this series was the 1st non-choose your own adventure book I read for entertainment so its got some sentimental value to it as well.)

 

[drothgery]

And whoever said terry prachett for humor, huh? Sorry that is just one more author whose popularity I never could understand, I really thought his books sucked and hard.

What have you read? I'm asking because Pratchett's earliest books weren't very good, and almost everyone I know has at least one subseries that they like. The Watch books, Witches books, Death books, and Rincewind books all have very different tones. And I think the best book is the standalone Small Gods.

 

[Ace]

Kay doesn't write a 'spic-and-span' world. Cook doesn't write a spin-n-span world. Brust doesn't write a spic-and-span world. Even Jordan doesn't. But I can't deal with a book where gory scenes are something other than rare and shcoking; in Martin's world they're utterly commonplace.

It's why I won't pick up Goodkind or Donaldson, and why I stopped after two books with Martin.

I agree with you on these points drothgery, My problem with Goodkind in less the gore and more the general lameness factor. Psycho Dominatrix bodyguards and all the rest of the bad game world leftovers bore me silly. Plus Goodkind has no world building skills at all.

Donaldson can build worlds although I didn't like Thomas Covenant in the least. The Mordants Need duology however was amazing. Two books of great writing. Plus no sequal itis. YaY

When it comes morally ambiguous charcters I like them but i wouldn't consider the characters in A Game of Thrones to morally ambiguous. Those people have no moral center of anykind that I was able to find.

Those characters always seem to take the self serving expedient route in any situation instead of making sacrifices.

Thats what I call Evil JMHO

 

[Eosin the Red]

Hello Son_of_Thunder

If you want to read excellent entertaining books, read Dragonlance Chronicles, read the Shanara series, read the Dark Elf books. Don't pass up David Eddings stuff or Tad Williams 'Memory, Sorrow and Thorn'.

I thought this was interesting and many of the responses have also been well thought out.

I seem to love all of the books you hate, and hate nearly every single book you recommend! How odd is that.

I didn't mind the first 5 of Eddings, but the story never changed after that.

I liked TW but ending was predictible after reading 150 pages. Sometimes when the ending is known, it ain't a bad thing (TM). A good example that comes to mind is Babylon5, but TW just seemed to telegraph each move.

Nearly all of the books talked about in this thread illicit strong reaction, +/- from me. Few of the books were so-so.

I love to read Vachess, anybody else read him?

 

[ergeheilalt]

Gritty, not gritty, or in between?

I love Gritty Fantasy books. I love the "White Robe" fantasy books. Goodkind IMO was a great writer. I'm not saying that his works are nausea-less; his writing did, however, bring the "castration" passage come alive in my mind. His story gets drawn out (As far as I can tell <U>Pilliars of Creation</U> had no real impact on Richard or Khalan.), but the books are great in quality.

Black and White fantasy is great too. Weis, Eddings, Brooks (which I am currently re-reading for the third time) are all great authors that have created books with clearly defined good and evil. (I kinda put Brooks in the middle, as many of the tasks given to the various Druids are not pure good). This does not mean they are poor writers, they have a different flare of writing.

For those who like worlds in which good & evil are balanced, I suggest "Her Majestly's Wizard" ... if the puns don't kill ya, the story will entertain you to say the least.

As for T.C. by Donaldson, The only things I really drew from that book we're rather embarassing questions for my father...I was 13 when I read those books. I did, however, enjoy the idea of hidden tomes of magic.